Which one of these men will you kill...if either?

by Terry 112 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  AGuest

  Most of you would walk away, doing nothing.

  Ummmmm... while the scenario was a hypothetical, dear Q (peace to you!), most of us walk away from some REAL atrocity or another being committed against our fellowman on a daily basis. The people in Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Tibet, Chine, North Korea... and more... believe there are atrocities being committed against them. Some of us agree... and get involved... some of us disagree and stay out of it. Some of us agree... and still stay out of it. Yet, thousands are being killed... really.

  But to bring it closer to home, for many of us here, the WTBTS (which is just as heinous as the serial killer in the scenario due the families it has utterly demolished AND I'm sure EVERYONE here would agree it is responsible for WAY more deaths... one way or another... than the killer's 11... as well as far-reaching consequences that might rival, if not outnumber, the cancer patients in the scenario). Tell me, please, what are YOU (and dear TTO and Terry - peace to you, both!) personally doing about THAT?

  I can show you how some would respond:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/208934/1/Can-someone-PLEASE-scan-the-Watchtower-dated-7-15-11-and-PM-me-Im-going-public-People-need-to-be-warned-about-this-CULT-Im-done-sitting-on-the-sidelines-watching

  C'mon... most here are just as apathetic about the atrocities committed by the WTBTS as they are about many other things, including your hypo. Why? As someone in the other thread stated, "No one cares." If folks don't care about the "cancer" that is the WTBTS (although we KNOW what damge it can does and will do)... it's highly unlikely they're going to make the decision to pull the switch on a man they're not even SURE is the right one.

  I get it that some folks get a kick out of "logic" puzzles and such. One thing such logic overlooks, however, always: the HUMAN variable. Which is most unpredictable.

  Again, I bid you all peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Farkel

  Terry,

  : It is to expose each of you who responded to the MECHANISM of CHOICE inside of your own head.

  Do I sense a little "fuck you" in that statement? A little arrogance? Superiority. Elitism? Narcissism?

  You have made the non sequitur an art form. In the vernacular, that statement above is so full of bullshit, it is unworthy of a reply.

  I appreciate your efforts, Terry. Most of them (your posts) are very worthy and engaging, not withstanding that your arrogance even exceeds mine. That is a feat which is difficult, and I salute you for that. You are even a decent musician, not great just decent. I'm not great, but just decent, too.

  That being said, Einstein did amazing thought experiments and the world was bettered by it.

  You are just blathering. One thing I discovered as I came to know that I am sick and will die relatively young is that everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is utter bullshit and doesn't really matter.

  We're about the same age. Perhaps you might not take yourself and your pontifications so seriously.

  None of this (you/me) matters, Terry. It is all bullshit after all in the Cosmic sense.

  Farkel
• 

  Terry

  Farkel needs a hug!!!

  {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{FARKEL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
• 

  Terry

  As some who was trained to make this type of decision, with much less than 10 minutes.

  Anyone who would take action in the little test you gave would be unfit to be a police officer.

  Here is a sidebar you might find interesting as a background.

  When I was a teenager I studied Karate with an ex marine. I took the classes and broke boards, concrete tiles, etc.

  But, when I went into Federal Prison (as a conscientious objector) I was grabbed from behind by a very large, muscular fellow

  who informed me that he was going to "punk" me. (Anal rape.)

  Now here is where the interesting part kicks in....

  He had sneaked up behind me and reached under my armpits and clamped his hands behind my head and started humping on me.

  He told me I may as well give in and let him do it or he'd knock me out and take what he wanted anyway.

  Ironically, I knew exactly what to do! If I stomped backward with my foot on his instep I could shatter a bone and he'd be compelled to let go.

  I suddenly discovered something startling to me. I DID NOT HAVE THE VIOLENCE NECESSARY to carry out this simple action!!

  Do you have any idea how incredibly flabbergasting that was??

  I could not bring myself to break this rapist's instep!

  I got out of the situation by calmly talking to this asshole. I told him he'd be sent to maximum security and 5 years would be added to his sentence.

  blah blah blah...whatever it took to take his mind off my sphincter.

  He finally relented and backpeddeled.

  Suffice to say I had nightmares about all of this for years afterward. I'm still jumpy when somebody stands behind me.

  But--ON TOPIC--I hated myself for years. I could not understand what had happened inside of me.

  Hurting a guy trying to rape you is a no-brainer. But--I didn't have it in me.

  What was I? Some kind of little girl? Yadda yadda yadda.

  Fast forward....

  Now I realize it doesn't really matter what you think you SHOULD DO if it isn't in your nature to actually DO it.

  In the above TOPIC RELATED scenario I would not be able to do what I think SHOULD be done: kill both men.

  So, I'm all hat and no cattle when it comes to doing what it takes.

  Just thought you should know.
• 

  thetrueone

  Goes to show making up a hypothetical scenario is quite different when making decisions in reality.

  I thought it was funny though that you got Aguest to preach a sermon on morality.

  She's Jesus in a dress.

  By the way Terry you made the right decision with that thug in prison, you could have broken his instep but then later on after he healed

  you would have most likely stomped on you, worse then what you did to him.

  Sometimes using psychology on people is stronger and more proficient than using your fists.
• 

  Terry

  Now that I've had waaay too many years to reflect on all this...here is what I think was happening.

  It flashed into my mind that it would appear to be sheer hypocrisy to be a conscientious objector and then act violently!

  I would undermine the credibility of all JW's in prison by DEFENDING MYSELF while refusing to defend my own country!

  It short-circuited something inside me and it really messed my mind up for a long time.

  There was always some inmate or other making fun of the brothers and asking taunting questions. A violent act on the part of any of us

  would be indefensible....or SO I THOUGHT.

  Yes, the non-violent response turned out to be the right one. I knew he'd have to let go of me to actually DO ANYTHING but threaten.

  The second he let go there would have been a different scenario to deal with: him chasing a fleet-footed gazelle across the compound!

  We don't really really KNOW OURSELVES until we face a pivotal moment FOR REAL.

  That moment of discovery can be stunningly unexpected in what it reveals.
• 

  Satanus

  'We don't really really KNOW OURSELVES until we face a pivotal moment FOR REAL.

  That moment of discovery can be stunningly unexpected in what it reveals.'

  I agree. Today, you may be a different person than you were then. Today, if something similar happened, you might put the guy out of commission for a long time. When a violent guy is laid up for a long time, he has time to do a lot of thinking, and he generally changes, in some way.

  S
• 

  tec

  I agree. No one knows what we would do until we are actually in that situation. We know only what we HOPE we would do. Unless you've already been in that situation, and then you might have a better idea of what you would do next time.

  Tammy
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  Allow me to user Star Trek to answer this question. This thought experiement is a variation of the no win situation, like the Kobiyashi Maru test. Do I commit a wrong act to save lives, or do I follow the rules, essentially do the "right" thing, knowing that it will lead to greater atrocities? This type of thought experiment is seen in questions like "Is it ok to steal if it's to feed your family?". In THIS case, the thought "experiment" is more like Sophie's choice, where someone with greater knowledge, power and circumstances has setup a situation where you are forced to make a terrible choice, one that they could easily rectify or remove. That's why I rejected it as a valid thought experiment.

  Treating as it is, I treated it more like the Kobiyashi Maru, a classic no-win situation and went Kirk's route. Change the conditions of the test. Cheat. In the face of an artificially created situation, change the rules so that you can win. In more classic philosophical thinking when faced with a false dichomoty in a choice, you take the middle road, reject the false dichotomy.

  Yes, I totally geeked out.
• 

  SixofNine

  I would undermine the credibility of all JW's in prison by DEFENDING MYSELF while refusing to defend my own country!

  I could not bring myself to break this rapist's instep!

  You're asking me to accept an extraordinary claim: that you thought all of the above in this outrageously tense moment.

  btw, so long as it is an impossible hypothetical, your initial query is a math question, not a philosophical question. Like you, I do worry about people who couldn't or wouldn't act positively on simple, obvious math facts - and who then posture that their lack of action would be because of some bizzare take on ethics and their own deep inner abhorence of violence rather than a simple lack of confidence in their own ability to do the heroic thing in a decisive moment (at the least, they could/should confidently challenge the assumptions in your initial premise) coupled with a fear of consequence to themselves if they fail. But then again, that seems to be approximately what you are doing as you retell your experience with the big guy. There's probably a really interesting study in all this: The Math of Fear.