by jay88 176 Replies latest jw friends
I asked the wrong question. It should be, What would make 'god' evident? belief is a whole different ballgame.
I would think that the second coming as described:
Jesus returning in bodily form, leaving no doubts as to who and what he is.
Beyond that, not sure.
that's pretty much the same as asking yourself "what would make the existence of fairies evident". seeing is believing.
just some random event like the healing of an amputee (which would be something nice for a change, as prayer seems to heal all kinds of stuff, but never is effective on amputees) wouldn't be enough evidence for me to believe in "god". because it could well be some unknown natural power, like some self-healing process or the like. addidionally, such event wouldn't point to some particular god. there's no way finding out if quetzalcoatl, thor or anubis did the miracle.
Example: instead of finding several cancer patients that were cured by the power of prayer and belief, find one documented case of an amputee growing back the lost limb through the power of prayer and belief.
And when science proves that this case was just an anomoly in the genetic make up of said individual, then what "proof" would that be?
My point is that pretty much ANY proof can be "explanied" or "contextualized" as to make God on ONE of the possibilites.
Psac, I get where you are going with that. Fair enough. It is true the other way around. There is some science trying to actually address regrowing limbs or lost body parts using chemicals and biology and stem cells and stuff like that. I can imagine that believers say that science can only do this because of how wonderfully we are created.
So I will retract my last statement. Even an amputee growing a limb back without medical intervention might be a freak of an anomoly of genetic makeup. I mean, the comic books are full of mutants that have superpowers similar to regrowth.
That leaves personal revelation. If God wants me to know he is there, he can tell me. I am sure he will find a way to make me know it. Apparently, the Bible and JWN are full of people that have had that experience. And it is unfair for him to expect belief from me or anyone without the same. It is also unfair to use the personal revelations of others as proof, because that's unproven to me and it makes things seem even more like he is saying some are not worthy of knowing.
So, if God wants me, he knows where to find me.
If he/she/it revealed itself directly (no human "messengers") not only to me, but to every other human being everywhere else on earth, at the same time, regardless of gender/culture/religion/etc., so that there could be no possibility of mental illness, or delusion, or hypnosis, or whatever, then I could believe.
And it would have to be notable. Like, an appearing and speaking to everyone, the exact same message, at the exact same time.
None of this cryptic "god IS everywhere and DOES reveal himself to everybody! Can't you feel the wind, see the trees, read his 2,000-year-old Holy Book?!" crap.
Blame god for making me an atheist. If a god wanted me to believe in it, I would have already.
So, if God wants me, he knows where to find me.
You can do whatever you want with what I'm about to say. Please understand that I say it only to get you to consider something; not to judge or anything.
But I have never ever said the words that you said above.
I seek Him, through His Son, though He is always there. I 'knock' and I keep 'knocking'. I practice quieting myself, in spirit, to listen for Him, to see Him... and I keep doing these things.
I see them both (God and Christ) best in love, in forgiveness, in mercy. But I don't believe because of proof; nor for anything I can get out of it - though I do get strength, and peace, and hope, and a greater understanding of love, that continues to grow (but that's just gravy, really). I believe because I love Him. Those other things strengthen that belief, yes. But they are not the basis.
Just some thoughts, OTWO. I wish you only peace.
Tammy
Oh, let's see...a talking burning bush, a talking pillar of smoke and fire, an unexplainably abundant supply of bread and fish, the ability to walk on water even briefly, seeing Jesus and touching his wounds, resurrection of my grandma or grandpa, a flame of holy spirit above my head, the ability to speak a foreign language I've never studied, a vision where God talks to me I'm blinded for three days and then my vision is miraculously returned and scales fall from my eyes. Any of that would work for me. But just in case none of that is still possible, a normal relationship with any of my family members who now shun me would also suffice, since that would actually answer all those heartfelt, tearful prayers I made. A personal revelation or experience would work just fine for me, even if no one else believed me, I wouldn't expect them to. It would work because I asked for it.
Tammy, I sincerely sought him before. If God lets the sincerest of searchers join a cult, if he lets many of them die of their ailments when begging for life, then who needs that? I am done. He knows where I am. (And he can explain why he lets so many down, so don't you bother.)
People get strength and hope from various conflicting beliefs. That's the placebo effect and that's why drugs do the double-blind tests- you and the doctor don't know if you are getting the real drug or the placebo.
Once I knew religion and belief are a placebo, then the effect cannot work on me. Keep your sugar pills.
Tammy, I sincerely sought him before.
I know you did. I did the same. I don't know why you joined a cult and I did not. Perhaps because I wasn't as vulnerable as you were, when the jw's came knocking at my door. I think we both know that they are not above feeding on someone else's pain, while that person is down and vulnerable, in order to 'get them'. But that was their wrong, and their deceit.
Tammy
OTWO, I really wish I had an answer for you, with all my heart I wish that,
But I don't have one.
I don't know whY Christ comes to some sooner and others later, I don't know that I can give you an answer that will satisify you or anyone.
I do know that Christ WILL come to you, and I know that when he does he will answer your questions and you will be at peace.
No matter what, you are a good man and we all know that, for what its worth :)
What is wrong with Al'Lah , the God worshipped before Abraham ? Why do you reject Him ? Psac ,Tammy et al ?
And if you had the kind of evidence that is necessary to convince us cynical old atheists, who like the scientific method, would the individual you are proving the existence of be truly "God" ?
Surely HE/She/They must be unknowble to us mere specks ? Or is "God" merely another life form ?
