by smiddy 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
TYU ....welcome to the Forum. In regards your second comment, watch this video. Even though there's some language in the video, tough it out to the end. When you do, you'll see the problem some people have with puting their belied in the whole "God sent his son so we can be forgiven, etc, etc, etc...."
http://www.youtube.com/user/thunderf00t#p/f/2/rdxeqEoDXco
The_Present_Truth
tyu: If God wrote on the moon with big letters: "The God of the bible exist", i would become a believer. I would daresay that is a simpler thing to do than killing your own son.
On the subject, consider Muhammed. A billion people believe he was the last prophet of God, i am quite sure we can both agree that is not the case. The kind of evidence muslims will cite is many: Muhammed has superior scientific knowledge (all of which is subject to interpretation, and has only been "correctly" interpreted after the scientific discovery was made independently), muhammed is mentioned in biblical prophecies (but allways post-hoc), muhammed talked with God (...but we only has his own words for it, and his immediate followers. Even if he really heard a voice it would, as i am sure you will agree, NOT be evidence in itself) and muhammed could do miracles (widely described and believed, but never objectively verified).
Most of the problems with believing in Muhammed comes down to the fact that the story of muhammed was only written down years after his death, when he had allready become legendary, and it was not independently written down by unbiased sources.
Lets take the miracles - Muhammed is said to have flown on a horse-like creature between two cities during a night. Ofcourse there are no objective witnesses to this, only the second-hand testemony written down years afterwards. Does such a story make it more or less credible Muhammed was a prophet? What if he was said to have flown on a horse every night?
At the end of the day, if i claim i had a flying horse, it just happened i only flew on it once and i had no independent confirmation, I think it would make you quite sceptical with respect to my trustworthiness in other matters. it should. It should make you wonder why i didnt choose to fly over central park and get a lot of eye-witness testemony!
If we return to jesus, the stories of jesus is only written down 40 years after his death. and the supernatural elements of the story of jesus is only written down by his followers. It cant even be confirmed that eye-witnesses to his miracles ever wrote down what they saw!
Tyu
The whole problem with the Christian message is one of 'Love me or else I will torture you'.
It is abuse in its most raw form, we would condemn any parent for using this message on their child.
why is it so impossible to think that those in India or wherever will never hear about Him? (Maybe there aren't many Christians in India, but they're there.)
It is not impossible but more like improbable. It's about family traditions and beliefs and what culture you just happen to be born into and what life experiences and path each person takes in these regions. It is similar to the same way you will never really understand about the prophet Muhammed, or the goddess Epona or the Jewish rabbi in your local synagogue.
How about these tribes people in the remote Amazon who were just discovered about 2 years ago? Do they look 'Christian' to you? These people have lived for thousands of years without anyone knowing they were even there! How would you preach to these people? How are these people going to know about Christianity or the God of the Holy Bible? ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/30/brazil.conservation )
Our resident Fundamentalist Stephen posted a verse from 1 Cor.1:18 and actually read through verse 25 which states that 'God' hides the Good News from smart people.
Diagram these verses and identify what is so wrong about the 'Pauline' Message particularly in contrast to Jewish concepts concurrent with Paul about God's accessiblity and aid to all humans. Hint: This verse was instrumental in John Calvin's development of Predestination and Selective Salvation, another big red flag on why Western Christianity is so wrong.
The Present Truth: It was tough to get through that link. The point is, God did not have to bring about redemption the way He did. He could have just said, "You're forgiven, I restore you to a state of grace" and it would have been done. He chose to do things this way. Why? I guess we'll only know completely after we die, but I see it that by looking at Creation, God is a God of order (look at the solar system, the human body, an atom, etc.). Adam and Eve were created and lived in peace and union with their creator. They broke that link, a divine-human link. God, being a God of order, decided that He would reverse what had happened. So He bridged the gap with a divine person, one who is truly man and truly God. Adam had life and by his sin brought death (spiritual death), so God sent Jesus Who by death brought life. It's not that God can't forgive or that He's some mean ogre to send His Son to die. God didn't have to create us or redeem us. It is all out of a motive of pure Love. Why did we need redemption? Well, if you throw a baseball through my window, I can forgive you, but my window is still broken. What is broken needs to be paid for or fixed. Jesus' death on the cross took care of that, as only a God-Man could do, the only one who could repair the relationship broken between God and man.
bohm: You are right that nothing can be proven with Muhammed. It is different with Christianity. Where are the bones of Jesus? Those 12 apostles, many of them mere fishermen couldn't have possibly pulled off the greatest scam of all time, a scam lasting 2,000 years. Would those same men and thousands (or more) after them all go through inhuman torture and death for a lie? For what reward? Wouldn't the cruel persecutions of the Romans have put a stop to that nonsense? How could Christianity have flourished instead?
Unlike Muhammed's "miracles", there are many miracles of Jesus that can even be seen today. Check out the Shroud of Turin, the tilma of Juan Diego (Our Lady of Guadalupe), the Miracle of Santarem in Portugal, the incorrupt bodies of many saints such as St. Bernadette of Lourdes, to name just a few.
With all due respect, I really don't think you would believe even if God wrote on the moon with big letters. You'd find some scientific explanation for that too.
designs: Let's say you made a pencil, but that pencil refused to write because it wanted to be a piece of paper. How unfair would it be for that pencil to blame you for it's misery because it is not doing what is was created for?
We were created to know and love God. When we do less, we create our own misery.
Heaven: We can only be judged on what we know. If those Amazons are being the best Amazons they know how to be, I believe they can be saved. Would it be better for them to know Christ, of course, but if it's not their fault, how can they be at fault? Again, God's ways are not ours. He can lead us to Himself by different means.
Heaven: I guess I should have included that many of us are probably descendants of some barbaric tribe (Visigoths, Vandals, etc.) and somehow our ancestors were converted. Many missionaries (Francis Xavier, Isaac Jogues) spent time with barbaric tribes, etc., learned their language and ways, and eventually won their friendship and were able to teach about Christ.
