Can we understand the Bible without the Watchtower?

by brotherdan 111 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    So PS, you are going to let human reasonings take you away from considering the OT? You just go by what people on this site are saying? The people on this site that are bitter and angry because of the way they were treated in the WT? If that's what you want to make your claims on, thats fine. But if you remove the OT, then you have to remove a majority of the NT as well. Jesus quoted MANY passages from the OT. Paul did as well. The OT was taken as truth by Jesus and hence the rest of Christians.

    So if you throw away the OT then you HAVE to throw away the NT as well.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    Free will, NVL. God has never forced people into a course of action.

    In the OT no such thing exists. It's "Obey or die". The same tactics the Mafia used. Even in the NT it's "Love God or Burn in Hell". No free will. Coercion with a threat of death behind it.

    I don't know WHO you respect, but imagine me calling your mother or wife or best friends some of the names that people have called God on the site.

    That's between you and them.

    God never commanded anyone to "rape" anyone. God never commanded anyone to take a "slave". There are some cultural things that we don't understand but if you read the OT with an open mind and heart, you can see that God WAS a truly loving God.

    Sorry, doesn't wash. If they did these things in the name of God and he didn't command it, he should have corrected them for lying in his name. If the rape and slavery allowed in the Law was not what he wanted, he should have corrected. We have a law today, depraved indifference, that describes God's attitude when he had the power to prevent, rape, murder and genocide and didn't, even when it was done in his name.

    Like I said, you focus on books like Judges and forget books like Jeremiah or Isaiah were God opens his heart and pleads with people to come back to him. Why did he want them back? For His OWN benefit?

    Yes.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    Not the case at all brotherdan. Throwing it away is not necessary. How long have people been trying to understand this book without cognitive dissonance?

    Taking into consideration that THE literary style of the entire Biblical era was METAPHOR and ALLEGORY gives the Bible the same authenticity as the ancient myths. People learned deeper truths from them, but very few took THEM literally. The LITERAL or what is called "vulgar" reading of the text is designed to keep the uninitiated powerless while the priesthood dominates them, acting as "mediators" and collecting tithes while they withhold the spiritual truths from the metaphors that would clue a person in on how to awaken his consciousness and connect with God directly. In that sense, the Bible is one of the most amazing books ever written, filled with spiritual knowledge and wisdom that transcends many levels. It can be applied to the world, the physical body, metaphysical science, astrology or the Universe. There are MANY profound interpretations that really expose the literal reading as the "milk" that Paul spoke of. When we're ready for the meat, then we can really appreciate the Bible's depth.

    But hey, this is just where I'm at. It's okay where you are too! We both love God, and God loves us, and we desire to help people. That's really all that matters.

    ~PS

  • Hadit
    Hadit

    The Israellites, after first coming to the promised land, refused to get rid of the demon worshipping people. And it was THAT that caused them to commit horrendous acts in the future.

    People cannot cause others to do anything - demon worshipping or not. The only cause we have is OURSELVES. Saying that someone else causes us to do anything is taking away our own responsibility.

    There is nothing loving in genocide, rape and pillaging.

    How is it loving to take all the women and young girls from their devastated homeland (no matter what it was like – it was their home and their security) and plant them with strange men who have now taken them as their property? Their property!!! How is a human life anyone’s property? Then to live a life of rape and servitude to men who say their God gave them this? WHAT? Meditate on that for a while.

    Would a loving God really do that? Or . . . would men who want to justify their actions SAY that God is with them. Because if your answer is that God did indeed say this then please explain where God would be for the women and children that he DELIBERATELY gave over to a life of HELL.

    The LITERAL or what is called "vulgar" reading of the text is designed to keep the uninitiated powerless while the priesthood dominates them, acting as "mediators" and collecting tithes while they withhold the spiritual truths from the metaphors that would clue a person in on how to awaken his consciousness and connect with God directly.

    I agree – it’s all about power and keeping the masses asleep. Asleep and chanting their magical word “Jehovah.”

    Hadit

  • designs
    designs

    What we learned from the Watchtower was an amalgamation of ideas from the Bible, Christianity, Judaism, Unitarianism, and philosophy. Once and awhile a little science would creep in. Now we get to unravel it all and put some semblance of order into our understanding of the cosmos, human history and its religions.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Working in a used book store it hasn't escaped my notice that the proliferation of books by pastors never ceases.

    There seems to be a psychology at work. It is an eventuality, I guess you might say.

    Whatever reason for becoming a man of god, once the Pastor becomes comfortable with his own inspiration he or she begins evidencing

    delusions of grandeur.

    Do you realize how many END TIMES explanations of Revelation exist by and large?

    None of these books shows evidence of any humility, self-questioning, doubt, leeway or self-deprecation. They reek of certainity and assurance.

    People eat them up like chocolates, too!

    Russell and Rutherford and all their ilk got pumped so full of themselves they were prey to their own megalomania, delusional imagination and ironclad conviction of certainity.

    And we, the dupes, swallowed the whole camel and spit out the turds.

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    God never commanded anyone to "rape" anyone. God never commanded anyone to take a "slave". There are some cultural things that we don't understand but if you read the OT with an open mind and heart, you can see that God WAS a truly loving God.

    Zechariah 14:1,2
    1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

    2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

  • AGuest
    AGuest

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  • AGuest
    AGuest

    I think the verses you've posted are grossly misunderstood, dear darth frosty (peace to you!). It is classic contract law, pure and simple. The definition of a "contract" is:

    "An agreement with specific terms between two or more persons or entitiesin which there is a promise to do something in return for a valuable benefit known as consideration. The existence of a contract requires finding the following factual elements: a) an offer; b) an acceptance of that offer which results in a meeting of the minds; c) a promise to perform; d)a valuable consideration (which can be a promise or payment in some form); e) a time or event when performance must be made (meet commitments); f) terms and conditions for performance, including fulfilling promises; g) performance."

    At that time, a man "sold" his daughter in that he exacted a "price" for her... a dowry. NOT because she was a possession/piece of property, but because of her value... to him (he and her mother will grow old and at that time a daughter would be invaluable as to their care, so she has some value to him/her mother/the family. The man who takes her away - they were nomadic, remember - must know this. Charging him a price makes sure he does). The man who "bought" her is simply the man paid the dowry to have her. Meaning, one didn't just take a man's daughter from him and the family for nothing (you know, like today, when the father "gives away" his daughter... for "love"... or sometimes for nothing at all. Sometimes, the daughter gives her self away... for nothing at all. I digress). This man becomes the woman's husband ("husbandly owner" meaning he purchased the RIGHT to lay with her and RESPONSIBILITY to care for her).

    So, let's look at this issue in a more "real" light:

    Amon wants Shechem's daughter, Hannah(who maybe wants Amon, too; maybe not, but that's another thread). Amon tells Shechem that he wants to marry Hannah and promises care for her as his wife. He "offers" Shechem 300 shekels ("valuableconsideration") for Hannah. In exchange for Amon's "promise" to care for Hannah, Shechem hands over Hannah ("acceptance") and Amon pays him ("payment") the shekels. The contract is "executed" and Amon must now "perform" but do so under the agreed upon "terms and conditions."

    What are the terms and conditions? These:

    1. Amon cannot not "sell" her to foreigners (i.e., he may not have cared for her at all but faked his promise because he really wanted to make a profit off her by selling her for 400 shekels. Selling her to another Israelite would not have been a problem because it wouldn't have been easily done. She would be an adulteress and the other Israelite guilty of coveting another man's wife).

    2. If Amon doesn't want her after all, he can:

    (a) Give her back (for which Shechem must refund "bride price" paid by Amon); or

    (b) Arrange for her to marry his son (in which case Amon must treat her like a daughter... and not a wife, which she is - the verse talks about taking "another" wife. In this case, however, her share is not diminished as she now becomes the son's responsibility - his father bought that "right" on his behalf).

    3. If Amon wants her and keeps her as his wife, but alsotakes on another wife:

    (a) Her share can never be reduced; she is entitled to what she received as an ONLY wife... no matter HOW many additional wives Amon takes on. Thus, she still gets:

    (i) The same amount of falafel for dinner;

    (ii) The same amount and quality of veils; AND

    (iii) The same amount of "marriage due."

    However,

    (b) If Amon fails to honor the agreement as to any of these three rights, she gets to walk (and go where she pleases with whomever she pleases) and he forfeits a refund of his payment.

    So, the entire issue was merely "contract law" which the entire Anglo-American system is based/built on. "We" just forget where we get it from. What was the purpose of this "law"? To make Amon think VERY hard about who he chose to marry. Marriage was a binding contract... for which the "purchaser" had to pay and price AND perform.

    Now, for those who wish to cry, "OMIGAWD, she was SOLD... how can that be RIGHT?" I would say to you... think: how else was a woman to get along back then? Do we really believe she could have struck out on her own? And what, opened a shish-kabob stand? Cleaned... tents? Maybe open a veil-less camel-wash??? There were barbarics and marauders back then, dear ones. Bands of men who raped and killed first THEN took... nah, they didn't even bother to take names. True, there were exceptional women who might have been able to hold their own against one or two... or even four... men (most of those only exist in action films, today). But there were bands who thought absolutely NOTHING of taking a woman and running a "train" on her to the point of killing her. There were even men (and women) who ate other men. And women. And their children.

    Back then, a woman needed protection... and deserved care. Yes, yes, I understand that it's not like that NOW. But it was THEN. In exchange for that care and protection, SHE provided care (meaning, a close encounter of a different kind)... and hearth. She bore a man children. But the husband could NOT be abusive or negligent. In such case, she really could walk, if she had a mind to... and "somewhere" to go. Even to another man, because neglect effected her release from the man.

    Pure-d contract law, dear ones. And a pretty good "bargain", if you ask me, given the times. Because other nations were not so "nice" or accommodating to THEIR women.

    I hope this helps and again, wish you all peace!

    A slave of Christ, who's really kind of glad to be living during these "days"...

    SA

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