Can we understand the Bible without the Watchtower?

by brotherdan 111 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AnneB
    AnneB

    Read through the thread and remembered point #3...now I can't find the Edit feature!

    3.) Studies in the Scriptures went through several revisions over the years. The earlier versions were, indeed, quite different in perspective from the later ones. Remember reading about the split in the WT after Russell's death, with Rutherford horning in and taking things in a direction Russell never considered? Well, it led to certain legal issues, one of which was "who owns the rights to early publications?". Actually, WT doesn't own the publishing rights to lots of earlier stuff including Studies in the Scriptures and (big surprise here) the Photodrama of Creation! The group now known as the Associated Bible Students has the rights to the early stuff! You can order copies of the Studies from them for a reasonable price and they are quite happy to share. WT never talks about that, do they! As far as the Photodrama is concerned, WT always shows the same roughly-7-minute clip...'cause that's all they own! The rest isn't "lost" in the manner that they imply (damaged, destroyed), it's lost as in "we lost the rights when Rutherford did his hostile takeover"!

    Lots to consider. The Bible isn't the "Word of God" (and that WT publication is something I get angry about whenever I think of it). Scripture is different than Bible. Russell wasn't out to save the world, he was simply trying to save the Jews (in his later years). WT is....well, I'll leave that to the reader to decide; I know what I think.

  • Ding
    Ding

    It wasn't only Russell who taught this.

    WT 10/1/1967: "Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah's visible organization in mind."

    WT 1/15/1983: "Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God's organization? No, we cannot!"

    Actually, Dan, with all the flipflops, the question should be, "Can we understand the Bible WITH the Watchtower?"

  • bottleofwater
    bottleofwater

    I honestly believe that Russell had the best intentions (some room for doubt though).

    However no matter how good they were, what has come down to today is an entity that is a powerful entity.

    You know how they say that power corrupts?

  • ziddina
    ziddina
    " Studies in the Scriptures went through several revisions over the years. The earlier versions were, indeed, quite different in perspective from the later ones. ..."

    Well, well well well well!!!

    Brother Dan, since you've got several versions of volume I there, I think you're in for an interesting read/comparisons...

    Zid

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace! I am directed by my Lord to respond to a couple/few things stated and so I do so in the same spirit as did Priscilla and Aquila when "expounding the way of God more accurately" to Apollos (Acts 18:24-26). If you don't agree, no problem; but I would be absolutely remiss if I didn't obey HIM... and if I didn't share the TRUTH with you. Because it is what I would want you to do for ME. I am going to include Bible verses because I don't think you will believe me unless you see it in writing. Note, I am going to use the NWT, but you should have no problem reaching the same conclusions from whatever Bible you use, excluding perhaps one quote - and I will make a disclaimer when we get to that verse.

    In answer to your question regarding why "I" am privileged to know these things when others some consider to be much more "worthy" apparently do not, please know that it is NOT because I am (or think I am) "special". Rather, it really is because of one thing: faith. Because of that faith I, sinner that I am... have the scriptures "opened" to me... like the early disciples... by the One himself of whom they bear witness to. (Luke 24:45) And so, I have been taught by that One to not rely on my own understanding... or that of other men... any longer, but on him... on HIS voice (John 10:5; 27; Matthew 17:5). So, I have turned all that I am over to him... and he is making my "path" straight. And he opens these truths so that I can share them with his Father's Household, Israel, and those who go with... because I am his servant... and theirs.

    Please note: I am NOT trying to "prove" anyone wrong. I truly am trying to help you know what is correct... at least as far as the Bible is concerned. Because so MANY based their faith on what [they believe] is/is not written in that book... but is not/is. Even then, not everything written in that book IS correct. But that, too, is another discussion. I only have one request, if I may: if you DO put your faith in the Bible, I would ask that you kindly condescend to at least look up what's in it, as I share such with you. By that, I mean don't stop at one verse given for the issue. Read them ALL. That way... you're not taking MY word for it... or doing yourself a disservice by continuing in an understanding of what is in the Bible... or not in the Bible... that may be inaccurate. Thank you!

    I still do not think that you can do it without His Word.

    By this statement you imply that the Bible is God's Word, dear BrotherDan (peace to you!). But the truth is that it is not. The following verses, which are IN the Bible, might help you to see this truth; however, it really is up to that Word himself as to whether you ultimately do or not (Revelation 3:17, 18):

    "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God..."John 1:1 (note - because of the controversy over the last part of this verse - whether Christ is God/a god/divine, etc., I have left it out because it truly has not bearing on what is being discussed - thank you!)

    "So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." John 1:14

    "... and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God." Revelation 19:13

    Now, if at this point you are inclined to say, "Well, yeah, I KNOW Christ is God's Word, but the Bible is God's WRITTEN Word, I must ask that you kindly bear with me and continue reading, if you can. If you cannot, please know that I bear you no illwill. Either way, thank you!

    "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." John 17:17

    "I am the... truth." John 14:6

    "... that HE might sanctify the people with HIS blood." Hebrews 13:12

    "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

    "I am... the truth." John 14:6

    "Therefore, if the SON sets you free you will truly BE free." John 8:36

    "Also, accept the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, that is, God's Word." Ephesians 6:17

    "For the Lord is the Spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." 2 Corinthians 3:17

    "Therefore, if the Son sets you free you will truly BE free." John 8:36

    "The sword of the Spirit, that is, God's Word." Ephesians 6:17 (Note, what is meant here is that the sword that BELONGS to God's Holy Spirit, which is His Word!

    "And out of HIS mouth there protrudes a sharp long sword..." Revelation 19:15

    "For the word of God is alive and exerts power..." Hebrews 4:12

    "To these also by many positive proofs he showed himself alive..." Acts 1:3

    Please note, in EVERY instance were the word "word" appears in the Greek... it is in lower case. It was man who chose in which instances it was capitalized or not, which has led to a great misleading. ALL of these verses refer to Christ, the Word ("logos")... even where they do not appear as "Word" (with a capital "W") in the Bible.

    Without the scriptures you cannot be fully equipped. His word is a sharp sword

    and is necessary for our relationship with Him. It's one way that He talks back to us.

    If this is true, dear one, then Christ's own words are invalidated and the letter to the Hebrews contains at least two very serious errors:

    "YOU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life." John 5:39 40 (Note, these are the verses where I indicated another Bible version may state something different. In that light, I would ask that you not put your faith in any modern version, but look up the passage in the Greek for a more accurate rendering).

    "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophetshas at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things." Hebrews 1:1, 2

    Note: it is the writings of the PROPHETS... meaning, Moses, the Prophets, the Revelation, and John's accounts... that are "the scriptures" - Luke 24:27, 32, 44, 45 - and ONLY these; none of the other writers were "borne along by holy spirit" but wrote from memory. Theirs' and others' (Luke 1:1-4; Acts 1:1). Which is why there are discrepancies between accounts, as well as between what Christ taught... and what Paul taught. Also, there were MANY accounts, as Luke points out (Luke 1:1); however, only five (the gospels and Acts) made it into the Bible canon.)

    "See that YOU do not beg off from him who is speaking. For if they did not escape who begged off from him who was giving divine warning upon earth, much more shall we not if we turn away from him who speaks from the heavens." Hebrews 12:25

    AGuest, Followers of Christ, and I am one, always end their prayer... "In the name of your Son Jesus Christ"...

    Not all do, dear Ri (peace to you!). And nowhere is such an instruction recorded in the Bible. Not that I'm saying one shouldn't, but one doesn't NEED to "end" one's prayer in such a way; indeed, one can OPEN one's prayer that way. In fact, that really is HOW one kind of must do it. One must APPROACH... through the Son... and ASK in his name. However, if one hasn't gone to the Son FIRST... and entered through HIM... he who is the Door/Narrow Gate (John 10:7-9)... one has not even entered in BEFORE the MOST Holy One of Israel... in order for one's prayer to even be heard. One has not "come to" the Father so as to have one's prayer heard.

    To help you understand this, look to the tabernacle/temple construction! The Ark [of the Covenant], over which God's spirit resided, was located in the MOST Holy. And in order to get into the MOST Holy, one had to enter through the HOLY. There was NO other way in. Even still, the only person who COULD enter... was the High Priest. Only he could go through the curtain that separated the two chambers.

    Today, Christ is the "curtain"... and so to even approach the Most Holy One of Israel, one MUST go through the curtain - through him. (John 14:6) If one doesn't, one is a thief... and a plunderer. (John 10:1)

    What most folks are DOING, literally, however, is standing OUTSIDE. Not just outside the Most Holy. Not even outside the Holy. They are standing... OUTSIDE THE TEMPLE entirely! Yet, they believe they are offering up their "sacrifices"... their prayers (Revelation 5:8; 8:3, 4) to God, who is... and so resides IN... the MOST Holy. When they do this, however, they are like the Pharisee... who prayed, yes... but to himself. (Luke 18:11) Because, excluding very rare occasions (Acts 10:4), the Most Holy One of Israel is NOT listening to those OUTSIDE the temple walls/gates! Unless one has come TO Him... THROUGH His Son... which one cannot DO... unless one has gone THROUGH the Son, who is the Holy... there is no hearing. Dear one, there is a REASON the tabernacle and temple were constructed as they were: after the "pattern" Moses was shown regarding the "temple" in the SPIRIT realm (1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:21, 22; Revelation 21:10-23).

    It is PEOPLE:

    1. God... the Most Holy...

    2. Christ... the Holy and the Cornerstone (Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20)

    3. The Apostles and the Prophets... the Foundation (Ephesians 2:20)

    4. Others, including those who "conquer"... the [Porch of] Pillars (Revelation 3:12)

    5. 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel" and "a great crowd from every nation, tribe, tongue and people"... the Courtyard of the Priests (Revelation 5:9, 10)

    6. The rest of Israel (those who are NOT sealed among the 144,000)... the Courtyard of Israel (Romans 11:25, 26)

    7. Those women who, like Ruth... went WITH Israel and followed their God... the Courtyard of Women (Ruth 1:16, 17)

    8. And, finally, those who, like Rahab, although NOT Israel, did good to Christ's brothers... the Courtyard of the Gentiles (Matthew 25:34-40)

    Everyone else... is "outside" the City/Temple (Revelation 21:27; 22:15)

    So, ending a prayer with "in [Jesus'] name" really is just words: you must go IN, offer up your sacrifice first (Matthew 6:9, 10) and THEN ask as to YOUR needs (Matthew 6:11, 12; 25-33). And you CAN go in... if you go THROUGH the Door... Christ.

    But most don't... indeed, they don't even KNOW these truths... and so they can't understand WHY it seems that God doesn't hear/isn't answering them... and why they can't hear Him.

    God's Holy Spirit is our helper to understanding.

    Yes! But WHO is that Holy Spirit... and HOW does he help us to understand... God... indeed, ALL truth? It is the Holy One of Israel, Christ... who is the Spirit and helper/comforter/paraclete (2 Corinthians 3:17; 1 John 2:1, 2)... and he helps us... by means of an anointing with holy spirit (1 John 2:26, 27). Because of this anointing, we don't need ANYONE to be teaching us... other than the Holy Spirit... who will lead us into ALL truth. Because he is the Spirit... OF the Truth (John 14:6, 16, 17; 16:13, 14)

    That is my feeling...I don't know if anyone shares what I feel...but prayer is the way I connect to our Creator.

    I am directed by my Lord to ask you: does the Creator connect with you? And if so, how so? And, again, I mean NO offense: I am just being obedient to the direction from my Lord to ask. His word to me is that he is asking... in the hopes that it will make YOU think!

    The Old testament gives us an insight to God's directions and education of his people he chose to continue until Christ came....

    Some of the OT, perhaps, indeed, very little... and certainly not all. For one, not all of it is scripture. Some is merely a recordation of histories and chronologies of the lineage of the seed, which came through Noah... and then resided with Abraham and then among his seed, through Isaac, then Jacob (aka Israel), then Judah. But a great deal of what is recorded is not even accurate (Jeremiah 8:8). And it really is only "the Law" and "the Prophets" that are the "tutor leading to Christ." (Galatians 3:24; John 5:39, 40) Even so, once Christ ARRIVED... there really was no need to return to the Law (which is why some Bibles contain only the "New Testament"!)... OR the Prophets!

    Paul's (?) words in his 3 rd letter to the Corinthian congregation help us to see this:

    "Therefore, as we have such a hope, we are using great freeness of speech, and not doing as when Moses would put a veil upon his face, that the sons of Israel might not gaze intently at the end of that which was to be done away with (the Law). But their mental powers were dulled. For to this present day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the old covenant, because it is done away with by means of Christ. In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts. But when there is a turning to [Christ] the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now [Christ] the Lord is the Spirit; and where the spirit of [Christ] the Lord is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of [Christ] the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by [Christ] the Lord, [who is] the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:12-18

    the new testament is a record of Jesus Christ life and teaching for us to follow.

    Well, there really is much more contained in the New Testament portion of the Bible. For example, there are letters of hope and encouragement, as well as explanations of Christ's position AFTER his resurrection and installation as king... including some of the features of his high priesthood. There is the revelation given to John, which includes prophecy and glimpses of my Lord's kingship. As well as many others things. Problem is... just like the OT, the NT has been tampered with (Revelation 22:19). Not just the NWT... but EVERY version. Every single one of them. Which is why there are so many. And the tampering started LONG before there ever even was a Bible canon.

    For example, the Septuagint was around in the time of my Lord. It preceded him by hundreds of years. He quoted Isaiah from it. However, he only quoted from it on a very few occasions. Why? Because he knew it was inaccurate... and that the TRUTH about the Most Holy One of Israel had been greatly altered. That's why he said that he "came to bear witness... to the TRUTH." What does this mean? He came to SHOW us... what God "looks" like. Thus, if you look at HIM... and then look at the "God" of the OT... you're going to see two very different "God's".

    But even more, there was a REASON that he included the SCRIBES in his condemnation of the works of man. Thus, he said:

    "Woe, to you... SCRIBES... and Pharisees... hypocrites!" Matthew Chapter 23

    He did not just condemn the false prophecies of the false prophets. He did not just condemn the unclean and filthy service of the priests. He did not just condemn the wicked and burdensome works of the Pharisees. He condemned the works... of the scribes. Which "works"... was copying the Law! He did this because just as Jeremiah prophesied... their "stylus[es]... were "false" and had worked in sheer falsehood!! (Jeremiah 8:8)

    Prayer is the key.

    Christ... is the key, dear one. Indeed, he is the One who HOLDS the keys... to death... and Hades. He is also the One who gives to whomever HE wishes... the keys... to the kingdom. Prayer is fine, but if you're going around HIM... as many DO... particularly the WTBTS... and "climbing up some other place"... meaning, trying to speak to God without going THROUGH His Son... you WILL be considered as someone who has broken into another man's house, illegally, and thus, without His permission. In such case, not is your prayer NOT heard... you are actually cast out. Because you are a thief... and a plunderer.

    Anyway, dear ones... I hope this helps. Truly. Again, you do NOT have to take MY word for ANY of it. I only shared because it is what I was directed to do... and what I would want you to do for me. True, I might not put faith in what you shared, if you shared something similar... but the choice should be MINE. Let ME decide. If my spirit bears witness with it, fine. If not that, too, is fine. But if I never HEAR of it, how can I make that decision?

    And how can I KNOW if what is shared is TRUE? By simply asking the One who is the Holy Spirit and so leads us... into ALL truth. The Fine Shepherd, Christ. That one DOES speak... and he WILL tell those who are asking. He WILL reveal the truth to those who are seeking. And he WILL open the Way... into the Most Holy... for those who are knocking.

    I bid you all peace... and ears to hear when the Spirit and Bride say to YOU:

    "Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, which 'water' is His "oil of exultation"... and is poured out from the innermost parts of HIS Cistern... the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, His Son and Christ, my Lord and master... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... the One who SPEAKS... from the heavens... because he IS alive... FREE!

    His slave (Revelation 19:10; 22:9), and servant to his "belongings," Israel and all those who go with,

    SA

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    "Can we understand the Bible without the Watchtower?"

    I think the question need rephrasing, can we understand the Bible with the Watchtower?

    The answer to this question is a catatergorical "NO"!

    Blessings in Christ,

    Stephen

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I am currectly read how the NT canon came to be, an excelletn book by the late Bruce Metzger.

    It is a facinating read, I highly recommend it.

    Since the first converts were Jews, they held the Hebrew scripture of their time as sacred texts and they put the words of Jesus on the same level and at times higher (where the two seemed to contridict), as time went on and Gospels and Letters began to circulate they to were used as guids to hlep people in their faith and to resolve any issues and concerns, but verbal transmission was still the favorite mode, verbal being read form those books and letters or being related by the apostles of those trained directly by the apostles.

    It was very natual that the NT would come to be as the many decades went by, not only because of challeneges like Marcion but by their everyday use.

    BUT they NEVER took the place of being guided by the HS, that is, untill heretical views like Marcion's and others began to suface from THIER interpretation based on THIER HS.

    That was the big issue then and still is NOW, how to KNOW who speaks with the HS or with some other spirit.

    Hence man began to rely more on what was written and less on what was "taught" by the HS.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    I used to really respect Bruce Metzgers work. But his work with Bart Ehrman seems to focus only on tearing down the Bible's authority using presupositions and speculation. I went through an enitre course on the NT cannon that was taught by Bart Ehrman, and was very disappointed in his attempts to destory biblical authority.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    I understand the Bible now better as an apostate than I did as an active witless. As I see it, Jehovah is a Tyrant. Satan tried setting mankind free from Jehovah, only to have that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag stop it from succeeding by meddling. Jesus also tried setting mankind free from Jehovah, but the Almighty Lowlife Scumbag simply used Paul and 40 years of bad memory to distort Jesus' teachings to use it to tighten the chokehold Jehovah had on mankind instead of letting Jesus' work serve its purpose. And it is full of threats from Jehovah to keep mankind in his tyranny.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    And that is why you still DON'T understand the Bible WTwizard. Those with a disgusting lack of faith and disrespect toward Scripture and God feel the same way that you do. You let your emotions get the best of you instead of seeing WHY God did what he did.

    If God IS love, and you call him the "Almighty Scumbag" what does that make you?

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