Fan of T.Paine here.
Can we understand the Bible without the Watchtower?
by brotherdan 111 Replies latest watchtower bible
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cheerios
>> You live in a time 3,000 years since... and are trying to apply your "logic" to that time. That... is illogical.
@aguest: i do not really understand your comments. you state that you've studied contract law - modern contract law? have you studied ancient hebrew contract law? is there even such a course? if there isn't, then how can you possibly understand the full extent of their law? you wouldn't be able to. you would be applying your study of MODERN contract law to what the hebrews did (or allegedly what god told them to do). our system of laws (and that is relative to where you live), while in principal may seem similar, has a very different spirit. if i am illogical for applying my modern views to those days, wouldn't that make you the same?
secondly, slavery absolutely is condoned in the bible - so long as you're not a hebrew. the jah of the ot had no problem with them taking slaves, genocide, abuse of women, etc. was it their custom then? yes. is it acceptable today? no. should it have been acceptable to a loving god that as he clearly states that he does not change for times indefinite to times indefinite ... i wouldn't like to think so. as to the hebrews not denigrating women .. are you saying that women were equal to the men? did the woman have a choice in who she was 'sold to' in marriage? what happened if she fooled around, as young people tend to do ... didn't she become 'damaged goods' ... well, as you state, perhaps that is my modern viewpoint from today's society, but since jah of the ot does not change ... stands to reason that he would feel that way now. the WTS certainly doesnt treat women equally ... and that is their god.
thirdly, i'm not certain how to take your greeting or your communication style. you call me "dear one" - as you do not know me, that sounds a little condescending. also, you write as if you are writing to a child - as i am not a child, that is also slightly insulting. as you seem to be a nice person, i thought i'd ask you if that was your intention? if it's not, great (and i shall not take it as such). just trying to understand your communication style. i enjoy debating, but only when it is non-offensive.
what i appreciate about you is that you have faith in the bible and god. i do not, however, and probably that is because of the WTS. that does not mean that i am not open to learning more about god, if he indeed does exist and is different than the god worshipped by the WTS. (i want nothing to do with that god - if that makes me a heathen, than so be it.) but many tend to feel that there is a nicer god. so i am open to learning about him/her/it; however, i want some type of empirical evidence presented by people who are not blind zealots - i do not see any difference between those people and WTS. if there is a god, that shouldn't be too difficult for him to provide.
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PSacramento
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianty
have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; Yet we have not advance an inch
towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half
the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all
over the earth..Thomas Jefferson..They were men of The Enlightment
Yes, it is true, many christians were presecuted and killed, but I don't think it goes into the millions though, then again it might, I mean Stalin killed 200K priest at one time.
I don't like numbers games to be honest, there is just soemthing not right about putting a number of lives.
in the almost 500 years of the inquisition over 3000 people were killed, in a space of 500 years that doesn't seem like much, but even ONE person being killed in "the name of God" is too much for me, and for Christ.
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jam
P sacramento you miss the point. It is not how many Christians were killed but how
many were killed in the name of God. Sodom and Gomorrah, Hittites, Amorites, Canaaites,
Perizzites,Hivites and theJebusites. The lord your God gives you for an inheritance,
you shall save alive NOTHING that breathes.And also the flood wipe out a few thousand.
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PSacramento
P sacramento you miss the point. It is not how many Christians were killed but how
many were killed in the name of God. Sodom and Gomorrah, Hittites, Amorites, Canaaites,
Perizzites,Hivites and theJebusites. The lord your God gives you for an inheritance,
you shall save alive NOTHING that breathes.And also the flood wipe out a few thousand.
Oh, that is what you meant...sorry I misunderstood.
Can you state your sources when you say "
Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianty
have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned;
Again I don't wanna play a numbers game, I don't think anyone wants that, but I am curious to where MILLIONS since Christianity was introduced came from.
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AGuest
Dearest Cheerios, peace to you! I have to leave shortly to train a group of veterans regarding Fair Housing law and disabilities, so I will respond more later, but for now, yes, I have studied modern contract law... which, according to such studies... is based on Old Testament "law." The Bible is the basis for MUCH of the laws in the modern anglo-american/european societies, including English common law and others. Because a great deal of modern law derived from the Holy Roman Empirical laws, etc.
So, truly, I did not pull that out of my hat.
our system of laws (and that is relative to where you live), while in principal may seem similar, has a very different spirit.
Oh, don't be so sure, dear one. The Bible was VERY instrumental in establishing the early laws of the U.S.of A. Which is why SOME folks want the Ten Commandments memorialized outside their courthouses.
Again, peace to you and I will respond to your other questions a bit later... and thank you for your patience!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA, JD
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superpunk
What is sad, dear one... is that Jephthah never thought to ask for mercy, which would have been granted him. But I find it peculiarly hypocritical that we feel we can blame God for allowing Jephthah to sacrifice his daughter for victory in the battle... when people the world over sacrifice THEIR sons and daughters... IN battle for the victory of battle... every day! Most "in God's name."
Sorry, but I can't love this monster God, he belongs in Hell for HIS egos to be dissolved.
What is interesting here... is that NOWHERE in the account is the Most Holy One of Israel mentioned... OTHER than Jephthah making a vow... and his daughter reiterating it. Note what I said: JEPHTHAT made a vow... HIS DAUGHTER reiterated... and HE carried it out. What did JAH do? One thing: allowed Jephthah to prevail over his enemies... which enemies would have killed his daughter, anyway... as well as him... as well as everyone else of his tribe.
Wow you are out of your mind with this rationalization. Not only with the disrespect that you show to the sacrifice of our armed forces (as though what they do is somehow akin to human sacrifice of innocent women) but your "his enemies would have killed her anyway" justification as well. This isn't doublethink, it's some sort of quadruple think where you are hypocritically jumping back and forth between justifying Yahweh's atrocious behavior and blaming the victim.
Why not just admit it is all a made up story to teach us not to write checks that we'd rather not cash?
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PSacramento
Why not just admit it is all a made up story to teach us not to write checks that we'd rather not cash?
Sometimes that is not the case, I have mentioend this before that we nned to view what is written in the OT and NT within the context of the times it was written.
God isn't ok with sacrifices, hence Christ stating, " God requires mercy not sacrifice".
But sacrifices is what ancient man believed God wanted, regardless of how many times God showed otherwise.
Same goes for "war in the name of God", The hebrews went to war, they prayed and offered sacrifice to YHWH, if they won God was on their side, if they lost God was upest and displeased with them and/or their sacrifice.
This was just ancient man being ancient man.
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superpunk
This was just ancient man being ancient man.
And God absent-mindedly wringing his hands, powerless to teach them to do otherwise ("they need to have free will to sacrifice virgins to me"). Oh but he could step in and wreck shop on the Canaanites in Israel's behalf, right?
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PSacramento
And God absent-mindedly wringing his hands, powerless to teach them to do otherwise ("they need to have free will to sacrifice virgins to me"). Oh but he could step in and wreck shop on the Canaanites in Israel's behalf, right?
Well, if you believed he did that then...
Look, The OT has much to it, it is NOT JUST a book about God, but how man viewed God and as such it has to be viewed as such.
You really think that ALMIGHT God NEEDS anyoen to fight his battles ?? you really think that ALL KNOWING God can't coem up with a better solution to rape then to have the rapist marry the victim so he can legally rape her as much as he wants ??