See folks. They really really believe there are things like real bread in Heaven, although they are kind of split on the locusts from the abyss, for some reason locusts are kind of creepy and the jury is still out on that one.
The Doctrine of Hell
by Yizuman 226 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Think About It
If I'm now understanding the Trinity right.......you got an invisible God the Father on the Heavenly Throne in an invisible or another dimension heaven. Then you got Jesus the Son in a Superman human body at God the Father's right hand. Then you got the Holy Ghost which I am assuming is invisible or at the most an apparition, but certainly not a human body, sitting either on God the Father's left hand or on Jesus the Son's right.
But, no matter how I look at them......I am not to see 3 God's, but only 1 God.
Think About It
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designs
Now who of the 3 Persons gets the fun job of running Hell or do all three take turns getting their licks in on the Lost Souls.
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Chalam
Indeed, you cannot see the Spirit or the Father because they both are spirit so you just see Jesus who is God but man :)
Us who have our spiritual eyes open can see all three persons in one God, Elohim
Some notes from the ESV Study Bible on the resurrection body.
1 Cor. 15:12 raised from the dead. Some of the Corinthians were denying not that Jesus rose from the dead (they “believed” this, v. 11) but that his followers generally would be raised. Paul emphasizes four times in vv. 12–19 that those who deny the physical and bodily resurrection of believers also deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, even if they claim the latter is true.
1 Cor. 15:12–34 Christ's Resurrection and the Resurrection of Believers. Paul next argues that there is a seamless connection between the resurrection of Christ in the recent past and the future resurrection of believers on the final day.
1 Cor. 15:17 still in your sins. The proof that Christ's death was an effective substitutionary sacrifice for sins (v. 3; 11:24–25) lies in Jesus' resurrection from the dead. (See also Rom. 4:25.) If in fact Christ has not been raised, then his death did not pay for sin, and there is no hope for life with God in heaven (see 1 Cor. 15:18–19).
1 Cor. 15:18–19 Although Paul believed that those who died went to be with the Lord immediately after their death and prior to their resurrection (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21, 23), he also conceived of the believer's eternal existence as an embodied existence. If there is no such existence, then there is no eternal life.
1 Cor. 15:20 Christ's resurrection, grounded in the truth of eyewitness testimony (vv. 4–8), changes everything. If God raised Christ from the dead, then Christ truly was the firstfruits (Ex. 23:19; Lev. 23:10; Deut. 18:4; Neh. 10:35) or the first of many others who would also be raised from the dead. (See also Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 15:23;Col. 1:18.) The term “firstfruits” (Gk. aparche) refers to a first sample of an agricultural crop that indicates the nature and quality of the rest of the crop; therefore, Christ's resurrection body gives a foretaste of what those of believers will be like.
1 Cor. 15:22 in Adam all die. See Rom. 5:12, 14–15, 17; Eph. 2:1, 5. in Christ shall all be made alive. See Rom. 5:17, 21; 6:4; Eph. 2:5–6. By divine appointment, Adam represented the whole human race that would follow him, and his sin therefore affected all human beings. Similarly, Christ represented all who would belong to him, and his obedience therefore affected all believers (see note on 1 Cor. 15:23).
1 Cor. 15:23 at his coming. When Christ returns, all his people from all time will receive resurrection bodies, never again subject to weakness, illness, aging, or death. Until that time, those who have died exist in heaven as spirits without bodies (see 2 Cor. 5:8; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 6:9). Those who belong to Christ demonstrates that the “all” in relation to Christ in 1 Cor. 15:22does not imply universalism.
1 Cor. 15:24–27 On the reign of Christ and the subjection of all things under his feet, see Ps. 8:6; 110:1; Eph. 1:20–21; Col. 2:15; Heb. 2:5–9; 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:18–22. death. When believers are finally resurrected from the dead, the destruction of death will be complete. (See 1 Cor. 15:54–55; Heb. 2:14–15; Rev. 20:13–14; 21:4.)
1 Cor. 15:28 the Son … will also be subjected. Jesus is one with God the Father and equal to the Father in deity (8:6; John 10:30; 14:9; Heb. 1:8) yet functionally subordinate to him (Mark 14:36; John 5:19, 26–27, 30; 17:4), and this verse shows that his subjection to the Father will continue for all eternity. God will be all in all, not in the sense that God will be everything and everything will be God, as some Eastern religions imagine, but in the sense that God's supreme authority over everything will be eternally established, never to be threatened again.
1 Cor. 15:29 baptized on behalf of the dead. Some interpreters through the centuries have thought this referred to vicarious baptism on behalf of deceased people, probably those who had believed in Christ but had not been baptized before they died (cf. Luke 23:43). But the interpretation is uncertain, and whatever the practice is, Paul reports it without necessarily approving it, and is clearly not commanding it. Baptism for the dead is an important part of Mormonism, but the Bible gives no support to the idea that anyone can be saved apart from personal faith in Christ (see notes on John 3:18; 14:6). Other interpreters argue that by “the dead” Paul means the bodies of living Christians, which are subject to death and decay: they are baptized “on behalf of their dying bodies,” showing hope that their bodies will rise again (seeRom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 15:42–44, 47–49, 53–54). On this view, Paul argues here that the baptism of perishing bodies is useless if the dead are not raised.
1 Cor. 15:30–34 Risk-taking activities for the sake of the gospel are done in vain if there is no resurrection. No knowledge of God (v. 34) manifests itself in denial of the bodily resurrection of believers.
1 Cor. 15:35–43 How are the dead raised?Using illustrations from various realms of the natural world, Paul explains that God will change the bodies of the deceased to make them appropriate for their new, imperishable existence.Verses 42–43 emphasize the discontinuity between present corruptible bodies and future immortal bodies.
1 Cor. 15:35–58 The Nature of the Resurrection Body. Apparently the Corinthians did not understand how material bodies, subject as they were to sickness, death, and eventual decay, could live eternally. In this section, Paul explains that God will change the bodies of believers to make them immortal.
1 Cor. 15:42 imperishable. No longer subject to physical decay or aging.
1 Cor. 15:43 dishonor … glory. These terms have to do with outward physical appearance: the Christian's resurrection body will be physically attractive beyond anything imaginable.
1 Cor. 15:44–47 natural. The Greek term ispsychikos, the adjectival form of the noun psyche, which is translated being in v. 45 and can also be rendered “life” or “animated existence.” Paul's contrast between “natural” and “spiritual” is a contrast between that which is temporally alive and that which has an eternal existence with God (cf.2:14–3:3). Starting from Gen. 2:7, Paul explains that God created Adam from the dust and animated him with breath. Christ, however, is thelast Adam, and his resurrection gave him aspiritual and therefore imperishable body (cf. Phil. 3:21). By spiritual body Paul does not mean an immaterial body but a body animated and empowered by the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 15:50 Corruptible bodies (flesh and blood) cannot inherit the kingdom. Hence, the need for resurrection.
1 Cor. 15:51–53 mystery. See note on 4:1. Christians who are alive at the time of the resurrection will be transformed so that their bodies become spiritual and immortal like the bodies of those who are resurrected from the dead. (See 1 Thess. 4:13–18.)
1 Cor. 15:54–55 Death is swallowed up. Seev. 26.
1 Cor. 15:56 power of sin is the law. See Rom. 5:20–21; 7:5–25; 8:1–3.
1 Cor. 15:58 Therefore implies a practical application for the doctrine of the resurrection: thework (such as evangelism) that Christians do for the kingdom of God will bring results that last forever. On fruitfulness in the Lord, see John 15:1–5 and Phil. 2:12–13.
Blessings,
Stephen
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Ding
Sir82,
Jesus' resurrection body is in Heaven.
I don't know where it's located since the Bible doesn't tell us.
Why not?
I think it's beyond our present level of understanding and it's not important for us to know.
My current thinking is that it's like another dimension that co-exists with our own, but I admit that's speculation on my part.
Designs,
<< Now is Jesus confined to his human body or can he transition beyond it at will >>
I don't know.
In the Bible, after the resurrection, Jesus appeared in various places in physical form and didn't seem to need to travel as we do.
For example, he just appeared in a closed room and he ascended into heaven.
<< how does Hypostatic Union play into this belief >>
The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit indwelling believers (Romans 8:11) and also of "Christ in you the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27).
This may be speaking of the same thing or related things (1 Peter 1:11).
I'm not sure.
<< why does God need to 'speak' between his 'Persons'. >>
I don't know if God does need to speak between his Persons.
It appears that He does so ("Let us make man (Gen. 1:26)... let us go down (Gen. 11:7)...")
I realize I've said "I don't know" a lot, but if the Bible is silent on a point, isn't it unwise either to be dogmatic about the answer or to assume that there is no answer?
Expressions like "hypostatic union" are ways of trying to express what the Bible is teaching but if you find them more confusing than helpful, don't use them.
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designs
Well let's go back to the Omnipresence of 'God' and whether he can be 'more' in one place or another. According to Rev. Kuiper he can without being 'less' or 'more' and still be everywhere (space) even fully occupying Hell.
Now does his 'goodness' and 'holiness' fill the same totality as his Being.....we're getting close fellow theologians
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Ding
Designs,
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but I think that God's attributes are part of His total being.
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designs
Exactly according to the Trinity- So what does that say about the Catholic/Protestant/Evangelical view of Hell and the God who is there running it and planning the eternal agonizing (far worse than even literal fire according to Deputy Dog) torture of the people.
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Ding
Jesus taught that there are different levels of punishment (Matthew 11:22; John 19:11; Hebrews 10:29).
The Scriptures also indicate that God will judge justly. (Gen. 18:25; Psa. 7:11; Pet. 2:23; 2 Tim. 4:8)
The Watchtower view doesn't make a lot of sense to me; Hitler (mass murderer) has the same punishment as Mother Theresa (active promoter of a false religion of Christendom)?
I don't like the idea of eternal punishment either.
I personally don't see sin as THAT serious or THAT evil (except maybe for Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.).
But isn't it possible that God sees sin as much worse than we do?
If our sense of justice is one thing and God's is different, which one is truly justice?
BTW, the Scriptures indicate that God will judge people (see verses quoted above; Psa. 96:11-13; 98:9; Isa. 3:13, etc.)
Yet, Jesus said (John 5:22-23): "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."
This seems to me to support that view that Jesus, as well as the Father, is God (or YHWH).
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Think About It
Yet, Jesus said (John 5:22-23): "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."
This seems to me to support that view that Jesus, as well as the Father, is God (or YHWH).
Reads like the Father is separate from Jesus and entrusted him to do judging. The Father sent the Son and the Son gets honor also, by the Father letting him Judge. To be true to the Trinity doctrine that all Persons of the Trinity are co-equal God....you would have to have an enculsion here concerning the Holy Ghost being co-equal in the sending, judging, honor, etc.
What makes sense is two separate divine beings having a Father and Son relationshup.
Think About It