TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    My Case for Jesus being God (Short Version since I have to go to work in an hour):

    * There is only One True God, Jehovah: *

    Isaiah 44:8 (NWT): Does there exist a God besides me? No ...

    Deuteronomy 32:39 (NWT): ... there are no gods together with me.

    Isaiah 44:6 (NWT): ... ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.

    James 2:19 (NWT): You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well.

    Jesus is declared to be a "god" and to be the God of the Apostle Thomas:

    John 1:1-2 (NWT): In [the] beginning ... the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.

    Also, John 1:18 declares that Jesus is the "only-begotten god" and the Apostle Thomas declares that Jesus is his God at John 20:28.

    1:) Jehovah explicitly says "there are no gods together with me" AND "Does there exist a God besides me? No." (In other words, there are no gods OUTSIDE of Jehovah's Being or Nature)

    2:) John wrote that in the beginning there existed a god who was with God.

    3:) John wrote that Jesus is the only-begotten god.

    4:) Thomas said that Jesus was his God.

    5:) In addition, Isaiah said that the Messiah is the Mighty God.

    Either the Bible is contradicting itself (which is impossible because it is Inspired of God), OR the Logos is ONE GOD together with The Father. Otherwise, the Bible is teaching at the SAME TIME, that there is only One God, and that there are TWO Gods, which is illogical and makes no sense whatsoever.

    How do all of these Scriptures above harmonize?

    Jesus explained it well:

    John 10:30 (NWT): "I and the Father are one.”

    The Greek text of John 10:30 shows that Jesus said "One [thing]" NOT "One person."

    * There is only One God who is God BY NATURE, who possesses the DIVINE NATURE, the GODSHIP, the DEITY: *

    Isaiah 46:9 (NWT): Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me;

    (There is no other Divine God according to Isaiah 46:9!)

    Joshua 22:22 (NWT): “Divine One, God, Jehovah, Divine One, God, Jehovah,

    Psalm 50:1 (NWT): The Divine One, God, Jehovah, has himself spoken,

    Romans 1:20 (NWT): For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;

    ("Godship" means "Divine Nature" according to the Insight Book and Liddell and Scott's)

    Galatians 4:8-9 (NWT): Nevertheless, when you did not know God, then it was that you slaved for those who by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather now that you have come to be known by God,

    (Galatians 4:8 teaches that there is only One God who is God by Nature, all other gods are not gods by nature)

    * Jesus possesses ALL of the FULLNESS of the GODSHIP, DIVINE NATURE, DEITY: *

    Colossians 2:8-9 (NWT): ... Christ... because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality [footnote: godship] dwells bodily.

    (NWT Footnote on "Divine Quality" says that the Greek word is literally GODSHIP.)

    Philippians 2:5-6 (NWT): Christ Jesus ... he was existing in God’s form ...

    (The Greek word for "form" can mean "Nature")

    So, we can see clearly that:

    1:) There is only One God who is Divine, who has the Godship, the Creator, Jehovah. (Isaiah 46:9, Romans 1:20)

    2:) The Christian-Greek Scriptures teach that Jesus is the God of Thomas (John 20:28) and that Jesus possesses ALL of the FULLNESS of the DIVINE NATURE / GODSHIP.

    Therefore, either the Bible is contradicting itself, which is impossible since it is Inspired, OR Jesus is ONE DIVINE GOD who possesses the GODSHIP together with The Father.

    * Jehovah DEMANDS EXCLUSIVE DEVOTION! The Bible FORBIDS people and angels from worshiping/giving religious obeisance to ANY creature: *

    Romans 1:25 (NWT): even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    (This shows we must never venerate or render sacred service to ANY CREATURE, but ONLY to the One who possesses the GODSHIP.)

    Matthew 4:10 (NWT): Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

    (Jesus Himself said to Satan that ONLY Jehovah should ever be worshiped or given sacred service.)

    Exodus 20:3-5 (NWT): You must not have any other gods against my face. ... You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion,

    Deuteronomy 4:15-19 (NWT): “And YOU must take good care of YOUR souls, because YOU did not see any form on the day of Jehovah’s speaking to YOU in Ho´reb out of the middle of the fire, that YOU may not act ruinously and may not really make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, the representation of anything moving on the ground, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens.

    (These verses are teaching that Jehovah God FORBIDS bowing down to ANY REPRESENTATION or FORM of Himself or of anything else.)

    Deuteronomy 11:16-17 (NWT): Watch out for yourselves for fear YOUR heart may be enticed, and YOU do turn aside and worship other gods and bow down to them, and Jehovah’s anger does blaze against YOU

    Deuteronomy 17:2-7 (NWT): “In case there should be found in your midst in one of your cities that Jehovah your God is giving you a man or a woman who should practice what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah your God so as to overstep his covenant, and he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, a thing that I have not commanded, and it has been told you and you have heard it and have searched thoroughly, and, look! the thing is established as the truth, this detestable thing has been done in Israel! you must also bring that man or that woman who has done this bad thing out to your gates, yes, the man or the woman, and you must stone such one with stones, and such one must die. At the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one dying should be put to death. He will not be put to death at the mouth of one witness. The hand of the witnesses first of all should come upon him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people afterward; and you must clear out what is bad from your midst.

    (Jehovah told the Israelites that if any one of His people bows down to ANY OTHER GOD they should be PUT TO DEATH.)

    Deuteronomy 30:17-18 (NWT): “But if your heart turns away and you do not listen, and you are actually seduced and bow down to other gods and serve them, I do tell YOU today that YOU will positively perish.

    Also, the Bible even FORBIDS worshiping or giving "obeisance" to angels and the Apostle Peter:

    Revelation 19:10 (NWT): At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.”

    Revelation 22:8-9 (NWT): Well, I John was the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that had been showing me these things. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who are prophets and of those who are observing the words of this scroll. Worship God.”

    Acts 10:25-26 (NWT): As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and did obeisance to him. But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I myself am also a man.”

    * The Christian-Greek Scriptures say that Jesus is the God of Thomas (John 20:28), the only-begotten god (John 1:18), and that we MUST BOW DOWN and DO OBEISANCE/WORSHIP TO JESUS: *

    Revelation 5:13-14: And every creature that is in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, I heard saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” And the four living creatures went saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

    (This passage from Revelation clearly and unmistakably shows that The Father and Jesus should receive EQUAL blessing, honor, glory, might, and YES, WORSHIP, from every creature on earth and in heaven. This harmonizes perfectly with John 5:23.)

    Revelation 5:8 (NWT): And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones.

    Philippians 2:10-11 (NWT): so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

    John 5:23 (NWT): in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

    Hebrews 1:6 (NWT): But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

    (The NWT Footnote on "Obeisance" says "Or Worship". The older editions of the New World Translation had the word "Worship" in this verse. Also, it is a quotation of Deuteronomy 32:43 from the Septuagint which is commanding all angels to WORSHIP JEHOVAH)

    So, we can clearly see:

    1:) You must NEVER worship or bow down to ANY OTHER GOD besides Jehovah, because He exacts exclusive devotion.

    2:) However, you MUST bow down, do obeisance, and worship JESUS.

    Therefore, either the Bible contradicts itself, which is impossible because it is Inspired, OR Jesus deserves EQUAL worship with The Father because they are ONE GOD (they Both possess the Divine Nature/Godship).

    * Jehovah will NEVER SHARE HIS GLORY with Another God: *

    Isaiah 42:8 (NWT): “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, ...

    Isaiah 48:11 (NWT): And to no one else shall I give my own glory.

    * The Christian-Greek Scriptures say that The Father DOES SHARE HIS OWN GLORY WITH JESUS:*

    John 17:5 (NWT): So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

    John 5:23 (NWT): in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

    So, we can clearly see that either the Bible contradicts itself, which is impossible because it is Inspired, OR Jesus shares The Father's glory because they are ONE GOD (they Both possess the Divine Nature/Godship).

    * There is NO ONE LIKE JEHOVAH, not even Heavenly Angels: *

    Psalm 89:6 (NWT): For who in the skies can be compared to Jehovah? Who can resemble Jehovah among the sons of God? (Also Isaiah 46:9)


    Hebrews 1:3 (NWT): He is ... the exact representation of his very being,

    John 14:9 (NWT): Jesus said to him: “Have I been with you men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

  • Think About It
    Think About It
    If the bible definitively taught the trinity - or arianism - or any of the other things people have interpreted - then this wouldn't be a two thousand year old debate.

    Actually, it's only about an 1800 year old debate, as Jesus and the Apostles didn't teach the Trinity doctrine to the common folk 1st century Christians. The great apostacy began and the Trinity doctrine developed out of pagan Greek philosophical metaphysical teachings incorporated into Christianity. It developed into the Catholic Church, Counsel of Nicea, Constantine, Athanasian Creed, etc. It's in the history books.

    P.S. Is belief in the Trinty essential for salvation?

    Think About It

  • designs


    Take a poll and see who among Trinitarians believe Jehovah is Jesus ( God the Son) and who believe Jehovah is God the Father. I was not confusing the two persons its just a difference that appears among Protestants and Catholics. Interesting that their 'Holy Ghost' hasn't been able to clear it up.

  • Podobear

    @ Think about it: You have a knack of hitting the nail right on the head. Well done! The debate did not exist in the early congregation because the doctrine of the Trinity did not exist. Jesus was born into Judaism, raised a Jew, lived the life of a Jew, celebrated as a Jew.. he acknowledges his God and Father prior to his birth, during his life and after his resurrection. It is so simple.

    Bravo! Think'


  • tec

    Clearly, verse 3 states the first thing God created was light, not Jesus!

    Stephen, I find this very interesting. You've given me something new to think about. Jesus IS the light of the world. Light being life. Now I'm going to have to ponder this for a while :)


  • Podobear

    @peacedog: You haven't had the decency to reply to me... call me and others strawmen.. typical of a person who flounders on theory and avoids the overwhelming facts: What are you saying about Jesus, is he Jehovah or not? Be plain... stop playing weasel.

    Psalm 110:1; Revelation 3:7-13: This Strawman as you call me wants a clear answer: Either David was Schizophrenic and imagining the same person speaking to himself, and Jesus has another God and Father besides Jehovah, and is also suffering from the Cognitive Dissonance of the Trinitarian whirlpool..... or, Jesus is The Son of His God and His Father... as He says he is.

    Please explain (fourth request).


  • tec

    Like I said, I haven't read through this thread, but I did skim some at the end. I do have to say that Peacedog's description of the trinity is the best I've ever heard. Doesn't mean I embrace or deny it any more than I did before... but I had no problem understanding what he was saying.

    *slowly backs out of this conversation one more time :)*


  • djeggnog


    I read your case for Jesus being God, but there are quite a few holes in your case:

    As I stated earlier in this thread, the apostle Paul is here at Romans 1:20 referring to God's divine or godly qualities (His love, wisdom and power also being reflected in the world's creation), as well as His eternal power and Godship [Greek, Theiotes]. But I don't know why you would be here twisting Galatians 4:8, 9, as if what Paul is referring to the divine nature of God, when what he's referring to is to the imaginary gods of Greek mythology that the Gentile Christians to whom he is writing formerly worshipped, who by nature weren't gods at all, that is, they neither possessed the human nature of mankind or the divine nature of angels, but which had in reality been figments of their imagination.

    Lastly, it occurred to me that all of the fuss you were making here in this thread had everything to do with my not adequately pointing out to you -- which I do now -- that the divine nature of the Divine Being (Acts 17:29), a reference to Jehovah's "Godship" [Greek, Theion], the fullness of which "dwells bodily" in Christ that Paul mentions at Colossians 2:9, refers to Jesus' immortality, something that only God alone possessed before He gave this divine quality to the Christ. It is also noteworthy to consider Paul's words at Colossians 1:19 in which he states regarding Jesus how"God saw good for all fullness" -- that is to say, immortality -- "to dwell [bodily] in him."

    Although all of the angelic sons of God were created with this same divine quality that both Jehovah and Jesus have, they are distinguished from Jesus in that all of "the fullness of the divine quality" that God has "dwells bodily" in Jesus, whereas the other angels do not possess this divine quality and thus are mortal. Likewise, those of the 144,000 will be new creatures just like Christ became after his resurrection, so that they, too, will enjoy all of "the fullness of the divine quality ... bodily" that Jesus now possesses when they are all resurrected to heavenly life.

  • Think About It
    Think About It

    Guys, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I'm actually surprised I got involved. I've tried to stick solely to a historical approach to the debate and relate my Arian views of God, even when growing up in a Trinity believing denomination. The fact is, I don't serve God and even if you serve God and believe the Trinity you are more sincere than me. There are still a few things of a religious nature that will perk my interest and a Trinity discussion is one of them. I just can't comprehend the Trinity without it leading me to polytheistic conclusions.

    Think About It

  • Chalam

    Think About It I just can't comprehend the Trinity without it leading me to polytheistic conclusions.

    God is one. Sure, there are multiple persons, but not multiple personalities.

    That is why Jesus said if you know Him, you know the Father John 8:20, John 14:7

    To see Jesus is to see the Father John 14:9, John 12:45, Colossians 1:15, Hebrews 1:3

    I find one God here

    John 1:1 (New International Version)

    The Word Became Flesh
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. If I read the NWT "translation" for the same verse I find it brings me to a polytheistic conlusion. Blessings, Stephen

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