by Dogpatch 81 Replies latest jw friends
I have this. I tried to go into this information and I was told to STFU
Having the information, reading the information, understanding the information and discerning the probable truth of the matter are 4 different things.
Congratulations on reaching 1st base.
If I could make one suggestion to you it would be to cut and paste less - its very confusing and obscures your point - this is a 'discussion' forum - not a cut and paste clipboard.
Hi "Alice",
There is a tendency for those who are victims of power-mongers to over-generalize and demonize their predators. They have been burned; they are hurt and angry and want revenge. Obviously on a site like this there is a lot of hate and vitriol that will be said by one anonymous icon to another. And each person's experience will be different depending on many factors, not the least of which is one's sense of caring for other people. Personally, I was never treated badly by other elders, and there were few that I disliked. I look for the best in people; in my mind each person I meet starts off with $100 in my mind's bank. I like to give people the benefit of a doubt. When I came to Bethel I had 18 men that I trusted and put money in my mind bank in their trust. I know many JWs that go all their lives in the org with a positive experience, for the most part. Good for them, they are lucky. Just the same, there are many Scientologists who are good people. But they don't work like slaves inside the inner circle in the Sea Org or get beaten by David Miscavige in other hidden facilities of the headquarters, where the scene is much different. Those are the slaves who are beaten and punished and work for peanuts. So one side of an organization can be very different than the other side. Do you allow that as a possibility?
When you put a group of men in an institution like Bethel where a few become predators and develop a taste for power and control, it can get very ugly.... but sometimes that ugliness is hidden for a long time, so long as things are going swell for them and they get what they want. But if they feel their power is threatened, they can change into monsters. If I hadn't gone to Bethel I might not have seen or had that experience. Just like the average Scientologist has no idea what gross treatments are meted out in the Sea Org to those who do not conform to the egos of those in charge.
Bethel was fun for me until the power of the leaders was threatened. Then one by one they capitulated to the real bosses that felt threatened. Then they're not worth the money for a postage stamp in my mind. That's when I voted to leave, at the peak of my Bethel career, because I wasn't going to kiss their dirty asses.
I visited many congregations in the 200-mile radius of New England in a sort of circuit overseer position as a Bethel elder, and I saw the good and the bad. I personally feel they were mostly good guys. Hey, I was a good guy! :-))
When I left and later became a pastor and traveled a lot all over the world giving lectures in Japan, Australia, Mexico, etc. in many kinds of churches. I saw the same pattern. To me it is not so much the religion or its beliefs that make it so, it is the creeps who gravitate towards these institutions who are looking for power. I saw exactly the same thing in some churches. They invent new beliefs to match their hunger for control.
"Alice", if you're for real and not just a troll icon, you may very well have had years of positive experiences with elders in different congregations. Unfortunately, many of us here did not get to live in that dreamland, and were abused and treated horribly. All in the name of religion. Like I said, I was just lucky. Maybe you were, too.
But why the arrogance you are displaying here?
The truth will be shown when you either let your hair down and show your own vulnerabilities, or end up fitting Besty's "troll test" to the tee. Then you won't be worth 50 cents in anyone's mind.
Randy
"this is a 'discussion' forum - not a cut and paste clipboard. cut and paste clipboard."
I made several comments in reference to media expositions and documentation acquired by the NY Times. Just because documents have been entered into court record (5000 pages about 16 cases) isn't indicative of an organization that covers-up abuse. What was the outcome and what do the documents contain?
You can read about what was involved in the first case here:
Amy B. Vs. WT
Anyone with any experience in Jehovah's Organization and knows what goes on there can see through the allegations made. Those with an appetite for bringing reproach and scorn on the organization see whatever suits them. If there was any problem that needed correcting, it would be resolved quickly. I for example would be a voice for descent in midst of any inappropriate behavior by an overseer. Jehovah's Witnesses examined these disparaging accusations thoroughly when they were made by Mr. Bowen.
"But why the arrogance you are displaying here?"
I didn't mean to come across as arrogant, maybe defensive and somewhat aggressive about "The Ted Jaracz - the Cardinal Ratzinger of Jehovah's Witnesses" generalization. I've come across plenty of Catholic apologists even when the evidence is overwhelming with very few voices of descent in the church against the pope or his inner circle. They can come up with up with a million and one lame excuses for pedophile priests. It would be nice to see some qualifying evidence that there's even a problem that's remotely similar before I try and invade different aspects of the organization.
AIW, the Catholic Church is a big target because it is a worldwide (Universal) church. There are over 1 billion Catholics in the world. However, the percentage of abusers in the Church is on a par with pretty much all of the other religious groups. Since they are so small, such as the JWs, the numbers of abusers aren't as great but the percentages are not really different.
In the USA, public school systems are a feeding ground for pedophiles. The AP did a study a couple of years ago that stated that it's pretty safe to say that every public school in America has at least one child predator working in it at any given time.
People who desire to abuse children put themselves in positions where they have access to their prey. The WTS is no different than any other group.
Why can't you acknowledge that there are imperfect, sinful JWs?
A question: what is your beef with Catholicism? Were you raised Catholic and abused or molested?
StAnn
Point taken.
I personally had no experience with pedophiles in the organization, more along other lines of power and control issues.
Bethelites often opted out of judicial committee meetings if they weren't married or didn't feel qualified. I wanted nothing to do with committee meetings and NEVER attended one (I was presiding overseer so I could choose married men for the committees).
Would you be willing to have a respectful conversation online with those who HAVE had experience in this, so that all can benefit without flame-throwing each other?
I sometimes enjoy Net Wars (it's like gaming!), but maybe there is something real about you we have missed. Care to share your experience, without exposing your identity? Or are you even a Jehovah's Witness?
Randy
"A question: what is your beef with Catholicism? Were you raised Catholic and abused or molested?"
I don't have a beef with Catholicism. Have I misstated any facts? The truth of the matter is there is 1 billion Catholics in the world and only a handful of pedophile priests. The main problem is Vatican City. Most Catholics I've talked to won't call for Cardinal Ratzingers resignation including my friend Kristen:
A Catholic perspectiveThe Emmaus Road
In spite of the abuse scandals, the Catholic priesthood remains
She says "she trusts the pope."
I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses but I'm not attending meetings atm. I'm off to bed but I'll be back on tomorrow.
AIW, I could easily counter every article you posted but I assumed you (a) wouldn't read them anyway, and (b) had a closed mind regarding the Church and Pope Benedict XVI.
Yes, you have misstated many facts about the RCC but that's probably because of where you are getting your information.
If you really want, I can give you a counter post for each post you throw out. But only if you're really interested in seeing another side. No reason to bore the pants off everybody else here.
BTW, one thing I will go ahead and say right now about one of the priesthood: Catholicism came out Judaism. God instituted the priesthood amongst the Israelites. The Catholic priesthood is merely a continuation of the Jewish priesthood, which still exists also. The priesthood remains and will remain because it was instituted by God. It's lasted thousands of years, no need to throw it away now.
And I have a really different perspective from many here in that one of those abusive priests is my neighbor. I've had him over for dinner, talked to him for hours, trying to understand how he could violate his priestly vows. My husband and I have come to the conclusion that he is a sinner, just like the rest of us, and as Christians pretty much all we can do is love him and hope he'll come to a realization of the magnitude of his misconduct. He still really doesn't get it, that not only did he commit a sexual crime but he violated his victim's trust because he was her priest. But all of this talk with him has given us insight and knowledge about the scandal that a lot of people don't have.
StAnn
AIW, I just finished reading one of the links you provided in your post #277,
In spite of the abuse scandals, the Catholic priesthood remains
It was actually quite beautiful. I'm not sure why you posted it. Back to my previous question: Why can't you accept that there are imperfect, sinful JWs? StAnn
