Why The Hell Do People Defend Israel?

by Blue Grass 123 Replies latest jw experiences

  • 5thGeneration

    I'd like to hear the BTS bashers refute any of his great list of facts myself!

    Instead of just saying he's uninformed.

    Go ahead SixofNine or others. I'm just curious if you can find one fact that's not true.


    His list is bang on.

  • Robdar

    Fifth Generation beat me to it:

    I'd like to hear the BTS bashers refute any of his great list of facts myself!

    Instead of just saying he's uninformed.

    Go ahead SixofNine or others. I'm just curious if you can find one fact that's not true.


    His list is bang on.

  • joelingeorgia

    religion makes me lose hope much more than it gives me hope.

    life is a fight for survival, religion is simply one of the tools humans use to fight others.

  • 5thGeneration

    Where are the refutes to BTS points?


  • Blue Grass
    Blue Grass
    I'd like to hear the BTS bashers refute any of his great list of facts myself!

    I didn't read all of BTS's post, as I can only take so much BS at a time. But I would like to know if Israel acted in self defense when it killed 9 peacekeepers, why are they refusing to release the tapes? All they released was a 2 min video of fully armed solders getting hit with sticks after they illegally boarded a ship in international waters. Let's see the tape when they shoot one person in the head four times and 5 others in the back. If it was self defense why won't they release the full tape and end this controversy? My guess is because it wasn't.

    They only opened fire after several of them were beaten nearly to death by the passengers and were being taken hostage. Here is a photo and video:

    Multiple people on board said Israel started firing real bullets before they even boarded the ship. One person was said to have been shot in the head before they boarded. Again all Israel have to do is release the full video to clear all this up, but they refuse. Also just like the initial audio Israel released, that picture is completely fabricated. It's strange the only photo of a peacekeeper holding a knife didn't catch his face. I can't believe some people are dumb enough to look at 2 mins of video out of an event that lasted several hours and think that tells the story. Until Israel release the full video, I refuse to believe their were any Jihadist on board, especially since they didn't find any weapons.

    Blue Grass

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Historically, the"body count" favors Israel

  • SixofNine

    Go ahead SixofNine or others. I'm just curious if you can find one fact that's not true.

    Well if it's a fact, it's true. What do you consider "facts" out of that list of belligerent assertions that BTS stole from some internet site?

  • sammielee24

    I don't defend any side - but I do think that a 21 year old American citizen, shot in the head 4 times in that attack, warrants an investigation. Reports that I've read, which I assume are as factual as others I've read here, indicate that communication was cut off to the ship and it was an attack in international waters. The USA has said little about the murder of that American and has refused to address the Liberty attack from 40 years ago, during which over 30 Americans were killed and over a hundred injured - despite eye witness accounts contrary to the 'accidental' report. So while people can defend the country because they have a right to - I just wonder why the US Government refuses to open investigation into these matters that involve their own civilians and I have to wonder if we heard it was some other country that attacked and killed our citizens, would we choose to ignore it or launch or own attack? sammieswife

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    I’ll take a shot at BTS’s bullet points. J He does use facts; unfortunately, he uses them like JWs use them: selectively, emotionally, and without background or perspective.

    1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koranimals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?

    While the OCCUPIED territories might not have belonged specifically to the Palestinians, they did belong to other countries. That is why UN242 condemned Israel’s violation of international law and demanded that they return the land. No, Israel has not always sought peace; they seek regional hegemony to the detriment of others, and with the US’s military backing, they have achieved that by being an illegal nuclear power. They “make the desert bloom” by stealing water from others, including the Gazans and those on the West Bank. Israel has been ruled in violation of Article 43 and Article 55 of the 1907 Hague Regulations, Article 27 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and Article 6 of the UN Convention o the Law of the Non-Navigational Uses of International Watercourses because of their strategic use of water.

    2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?

    Before the West became involved, Jews and Palestinians in the region lived in peace and BOTH called themselves Palestinians. In 1914, there were approximately 66,000 Jews in the region and 570,000 Arabs. Herzl, Weizmann, and Ben-Gurion gave birth to political Zionism which led to an increase in Jewish immigration to the area. Due to the destabilizing effect, the British adopted the White Paper of 1939 which limited Jewish immigration to 75,000 ONLY (over five years) and prohibited them from buying land outside of certain areas. After WW2, Europe and America didn’t want to deal with a lot of unemployed, sick Jews AND they felt guilty over the Nazis, AND there was a Christian religious movement predicting that the Jews getting a homeland would predicate Armageddon (Bible Students were one such group); therefore; the West encouraged immigration, which overwhelmed the region and destabilized it.

    Such an action would be like a hundreds of thousands of Canadians immigrating to the heart of New York asserting a right to it from before our Independence and the world sanctioning it. We would probably not “acknowledge” the Canadian right to exist as a nation in New York either. If the world amassed against us, as the world amassed against the Arabs, that might in hindsight be a mistake.

    As far as the Jews historical right to be there…residency in the area goes back to the Egpytian-like peoples of 3000 B.C. and the Jews inhabited the area for only 352 years all those thousands of years. Even the Jews don’t assert a historical right to the land; they assert A DIVINE RIGHT TO THE LAND (Old Testament).

    3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

    Lebanon is made of Maronite Christians, Muslims and Jews. THE CIA overthrew the demotic Mossadiq and supported the demonic Shah; that led to the revolution and led to fundamentalism there. Most recently, the Bush administration undermined the moderates and the move towards peace, which led to the present hardliner government. So again, while your facts may be correct, there are several pages that SHOULD be written on the political back story of how and why those governments remain in power and the U.S.’ involvement in keeping them in power. J

    However, the discussion is Israel, not other Arab countries.

    4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?

    726,000 Arabs fled OR WERE DEPORTED from Palestine during the war of 1948 war. The Geneva Conventions, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political rights establishes the right of peoples who flee the violence of war to return to their properties. Again, I’m not understanding your proclivity to write about how Jews are treated in other Arab countries. The issue is specific to Palestine, the Palestinians and Jews/Israel. With that being said, Jews are hated in Arab lands for all the above referenced reasons. There is a dearth of freedom of religion in Arab lands, but…again…we have to look at the fundamentalist regimes, HOW they garnered power, and WHO (U.S.) helped to put them there. Our meddling has definitely hurt them AND us.

    5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?

    A majority of the Palestinians that fled did so to other Arab lands, such as Lebanon and Syria, which led to destabilization in those countries. Israel has even agreed to monetarily compensate Arab countries for the costs of absorbing them, BUT they don’t offer much money AND they want the Palestinians to release them from their liability under Article 11 in return for the money.

    6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

    Incorrect. SOME of th disputed area are back to their original owners, Egypt and Jordan through separate agreements. The infamous “Green Line” is the rest of the territory, and per international law, it belongs to the Paletinians and the Israeli’s are military occupiers.

    7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?

    The security fence adds several hours to what should be a 15-20 minute trip. And yes, it was built in response to terrorist attacks, and it has been successful in reducing them. But, it is not a long-term solution. Terrorism has a rather recent history in the region, with the Jews (Begin and his Irgun militia that bombed the King David hotel KILLING THE BRITISH, and other Jewish militias that target American and British personnel). Assymetrical warefare (terrorism) the the warefare of the militarily weak and those disspossesed. As Eshkol predicted following the 6-day war, “ Military victory will not end the conflict, because the Arabs will still be there. Will we always live by our sword?” Until the Israelis agree to a fair solution, they are willingly exchanging their security for land.

    8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

    I’m concerned about all people. And I feel Arab governments, the US, the UN and the rest of the world all must be part of the solution. Unlike you, I do not see a narrow, one-sided solution, nor do I see one group as “the enemy” and one group as the “good guy.” There is plenty of blame to go around, and the includes the U.S., Britain, and the UN.

    9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?

    Lots to talk about here…not going to address everything. Black September? The assassinations resulted from destabilization. Those Palestinian’s who fled the ’67 war settled in Jordan, and destabilized it. Such a phenomenon is precisely why Europe and the U.S. didn’t want the large amount of unemployed, refugee Jews settling in their lands post WW2.

    The Israeli’s join with Gamayel (Christian leader) in Jordan. Israel will use its U.S. provided military might to internally destabilize another country by offering to bring a minority group to power in exchange for their help in “getting” Arafat, who was living with the displaced (from Palestine) Palestinian’s in refugee camps. Israel used ILLEGAL CLUSTER BOMBs provided by the U.S. to massacre innocents. Golda Meir (of “there is no such thing as a Palestinian” fame, since SHE didn’t recognized their right to exist) authorized Operation Grapes of Wrath to get Arafat.

    All the things you mentioned in your paragraph do concern me. I just envisage a more holistic religious and political solution than do you, because I see the “problem” more broadly…and a whole lot less emotionally.

    10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?

    This is too simplistic to even bother addressing. “Peace” would have come if we had just lain down arms to the Red Coats. “Peace” would have come if the Muslims would just have submitted to genocide in Kosovo. Peace will not come until the world develops the political will to back down Israel and the Palestinians make some tough concessions.

    11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?

    Lots of emotional nonsense in this one too, but in response to Meir’s quote…Haaretz recently published the results of an survey in which 49.5% of Israeli high schoolers report that they don’t feel Arabs should be given equal rights. If there were a U.S. poll that said 49.5% of US white youths did not feel blacks should have equal rights, it would make international news. These youth no doubt reflect the views of their parents, and it speaks to the bigoted view Israelis have towards all Arabs. Israel cannot be counted on to defend human rights in ANY proposed solution.

  • quietlyleaving

    fifth generation, robdar ask BTS where he got those "facts" - lol

    they have been put together to hammer a troll and are simply not true. If BTS thinks of us as trolls then he is fair game

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