which are the strong points of the WT? (page 9)

PSacramento

debator,

You seem to be insinuating that Jesus and God are one in the same, God is Saviour, Jesus is saviour.

isaacaustin

Debator said:

Hi isaac (by the way thank you for given me a full and mind-stretching debate)

My reply: You are weocome.

The evidence is against you

1/ the chapter context is God Jehovah of the israelites is the saviour.

2/ this is a direct quote from Joel "call on the name of Jehovah"

3/ the gramatical structure of the expression "call on the name of ....." indicates the name is forthcoming as with joel "call on the name of (insert name here)"

My reply: However, you are creating an artificial argument. The God of Israel was revealed to us in the person of Jesus. This is the name we are repeatedly told to call on in the NT, Acts 4:12, for instance. Isaiah is clear that there is only one Savior- the God of Israel. The NT reveals this as the person of Jesus.

Debator said:

The then historical proof that "lord" is substituted word for Jehovah by superstitious copyists caps it for me.

My reply

The term lord being substituted for God is proof for me that it was NOT used in the NT, especially by Jesus and his followers to the religious leaders.

PSacramento

How many times does Paul call Jesus Lord and Saviour? I lost track !

Peter, James, John, Titus, all do the same thing.

OUTLAW

Debator..

The name Jehovah does not accurately represent any form of the name ever used in Hebrew..

That fact is acknowledged by the WBT$..The WBT$ does not support your defense of them..

The Usage of Jehovah Came From Catholicism

Yet a different piece of Watchtower literature states the same embarrassing information about the word Jehovah, but elaborates as to its Catholic origin in 1270:

By combining the vowel signs of 'Adho . nay and 'Elo.him ' with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations Yeho . wah' and Yehowih ' were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinized form "Jehova(h)." The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favor "Yahweh" as the most likely pronunciation.(6)

Please note: Hebrew scholars generally favor "Yahweh" as the most likely pronunciation.

Bruce Metzger, who criticizes the KJV's misusage of Jehovah, gives additional information:(7)

The form "Jehovah" is of late medieval origin; it is a combination of the consonants of the Divine Name and the vowels attached to it by the Masoretes but belonging to an entirely different word .... (1) The word "Jehovah" does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew. (2) The use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom the true God had to be distinguished, began to be discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.(8)

I let it go your saying a monk is the source but the current thoughts are that he got his lettering from
semitic jews using this from 1000 years earlier obviously without the english "J"
You let a translation mistake go..How big of you..The rest of the world has`nt..
Jehovah is the established English version of YHWH and uses all of what is the hebrew written name of YHWH completely.
While other options like YAHWEH exist they too are only guesses and not correct or a mistakes.
It`s been established the name Jehovah is a translation mistake..Only someone "Stuck on Stupid" would deny that..
You are making impossible demands..
I`ve demanded nothing..I`ve pointed out a translation mistake.
You reasoning would have us not use any name because none of them could possibly be correct by virtue of not being in their original languages.
We would just have blanks were names are in the bible.
My reasoning would have people "not" use a Translation Mistake in the Bible..
............................. ...OUTLAW

debator

Hi snowbird

Jesus often quoted scriptures refering to YHWH/Jehovah as God, the God of the jews and his God.

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship Jehovah your God, and serve him only.' "

YHWH/jehovah is used in hebrew more than 7000 times as the name of their God. Now if you go back to the scripture I quoted Jesus is talking to the jews saying his father is their God. It doesn't get much clearer than that! actually....

John 17:1-3

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father....... that they may know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. This feels like it is disintegrating into a trinity debate so I will leave that point there. You have made your choice as I have mine which is part of debate. Hi psacra I refer you to my points above to Isaac but I think the burden of proof is with you to show that "Lord" is meaning another name other than the scripture it is quoting. you whole premise is ignoring the context of chapter, scripture and grammer. I think the grammer argument is logical hense why Joel says a name not a title. Would you say the hebrew scriptures where currupted by the removing of YHWH/Jehovah and replacing it with "lord"? What would the consequences have been if this had not come to light? and we never knew YHWH/Jehovah was God's original name? Psalm 83:18

18 Let them know that you, whose name is Jehovah—
that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

Since history establishes that YHWH/Jehovah was meddled with in hebrew scriptures it is not illogical to suppose this could happen with the Greek. And I think Romans 10:13 proves this. Obviously people argue there where 1000's of copies to change in 70 years but they managed it for most of the Hebrews copies only leaving alone already written ancient ones. Since the curruption of YHWH/Jehovah in hebrew to "lord" is already established it is not a leap to see this could happen also in the Greek.

PSacramento

Hi psacra

I refer you to my points above to Isaac but I think the burden of proof is with you to show that "Lord" is meaning another name other than the scripture it is quoting. you whole premise is ignoring the context of chapter, scripture and grammer. I think the grammer argument is logical hense why Joel says a name not a title.

Incorrect, Paul's context makes it very clear that Jesus is Lord and ACTS 4 make sit clear that it is HIS NAME ( Jesus) that gives Salvation.

Would you say the hebrew scriptures where currupted by the removing of YHWH/Jehovah and replacing it with "lord"? What would the consequences have been if this had not come to light? and we never knew YHWH/Jehovah was God's original name?

Psalm 83:18

18 Let them know that you, whose name is Jehovah—
that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

I would prefer you not use a "mistake" as God's name, but so be it.

YOU said that the NT were tampered with by scribes, yet have no proof of that except speculation.

Since history establishes that YHWH/Jehovah was meddled with in hebrew scriptures it is not illogical to suppose this could happen with the Greek. And I think Romans 10:13 proves this. Obviously people argue there where 1000's of copies to change in 70 years but they managed it for most of the Hebrews copies only leaving alone already written ancient ones. Since the curruption of YHWH/Jehovah in hebrew to "lord" is already established it is not a leap to see this could happen also in the Greek.

You really need to read Romans and the NT epistles again, and count how many times Jesus is called Lord and Saviour. It might help you.

snowbird

Hi snowbird

Jesus often quoted scriptures refering to YHWH/Jehovah as God, the God of the jews. and his God.

True, now that I fixed it.

Syl

debator

Hi outlaw

Since the original vowel sounds have been lost any addition of vowels to YHWH are a guess. So you prefer to think of "Jehovah" as a mistake and "Yahweh" as less of a mistake?

But the basic point we keep skirting around stands. That is, that YHWH is Gods name completely not needing vowels to change this. So adding vowels to help pronouciation in our language can niether make it correct or incorrect just easier to say in our language. Jehovah is fully Gods name as the established English version simply because it uses YHWH.

I feel we will never agree on this and you prefer to comfortably think adding vowels to YHWH to help us pronounce it in our language can make it less Gods name in some way. I disagree.

debator

Hi snowbird

I think this one needs fixing too then.....

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to MY God and your God.' "

PSacramento

Thereis only one place in which more of God's name is known and that is in Revelation in the word "hallelujah".

Notice the "Jah".

At least go with Jahovah then.

which are the strong points of the WT?

The Usage of Jehovah Came From Catholicism

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