Calling Perry Out (and any others who want to participate)

by OnTheWayOut 150 Replies latest members adult

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Repeating from page 2 so Perry doesn't miss out. This is a thread about calling HIM out.

    So, I know how you justify the Rape Commander being "moral." As long as no scripture exists that says "The lord commanded them to rape virgins," you will say it isn't so. The following questions still have not been addressed:

    What I want to know is, what do you accept as known evidence that conforms to existing physical laws to accept your belief in the God of the Christians, the truthfulness of the Bible, and the claimed miracles of Jesus?

    Just because you have stated something on here, or someone else has, has it been "successfully refuted" on this board? So the rest of humanity simply has to read old JWD/JWN posts and they can come to realize that they should be fundamentalist Christians? Not even the entire board of regular readers has done that. Do you really believe that?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I think it is worth quoting from a journal article on this subject. The article is "Violence and the Construction of Gender in the Hebrew Bible" by Harold Washington (Biblical Interpretation, 1997, pp. 346-349):

    The male is by definition the subject of warfare's violence and the female its victim. For example, the language of the siege instructions of Deut. 20:10-20 is densely supplied with syntactical groups joining a masculine singular verbal subject with a city as (feminine) object of attack. The laws thus reinscribe the discursive positioning of the feminine as object of violence. Given a linguistic milieu where cities are so often portrayed in the figure of a woman — either mother (Isa. 66:8-13), queen (Isa. 62:3), or virgin daughter (Isa. 37:22), a woman married (Isa. 62:5), widowed (Isa. 47:8, 9; 54:4; Lam 1:1), or raped (Jer. 6:1-8; 13:22; Isa. 47:1-4; Nah. 3:5-6) — the concentration of feminine forms in Deut. 20:10-20 inescapably evokes the figuration of the city as an assaulted woman. In issuing the command to draw near to a city "in order to attack it," this text effectively enjoins the soldier "to attack her" (lhlchm `lyh, 20:10). The description of the submissive city "opening" to the warrior (wptchh lk, 20:11) evokes an image of male penetration. Similarly, the law uses the verb tpsh to describe the military seizure of a city (lhlchm `lyh ltpshh, 20:19), the same term used for the forcible seizure of a woman in sexual assault (wtpshh wshkb `mh, 22:28)....

    The exemptions from combat in Deut. 20:5-8 disclose the motive for constraint of violence in the war code. The majority of commentators, who emphasize in their readings the humaneness of these provisions, identify with the warriors envisioned by the laws. How else could they characterize texts that authorize the annihilation or enslavement of entire populations as "humanitarian"? 92 The law exempts from combat a man who might shrink from the fighting lest he compromise the military effectiveness of his fellows (20:8). In the remaining cases, exemption from combat is grounded in the anxiety that "another man" ('ysh 'chr) might enjoy the newly acquired house, vineyard, or wife of a soldier who dies in war (20:5-7; cf. 24:5, 28.30). Here are envisioned soldiers setting out to deprive another people of their homes, their property, and their lives. Death in battle is regrettable, but presumably an honorable fate. Intolerable, however, is the prospect of dying in combat and leaving behind a wife or property over which the soldier never asserted his possession. The fundamental priorities of the law are demonstrated in the release from combat of the man who has just taken possession of a wife, "lest he die in the battle and another man take her" (20:7). This is the misfortune that a male code of war cannot allow.

    Deuteronomic law assumes, however, that the victorious Hebrew warriors will seize the women of their vanquished enemies. The law of the war-captive woman (Deut. 21:10-14) sanctions the process. There is reason to doubt also of this law whether it was extensively applied. 93 Warfare for the purpose of seizing women, however, does appear in biblical narrative (Judg. 21:8-12), and in Ugaritic epic (KTU 1.14-16), where the hero Kirta stages a military expedition to capture a woman from a neighboring city. Rape has accompanied warfare in virtually every known historical era. 94 Hence biblical commentators sometimes regard Deut. 21:10-13 as a prohibition of rape on the battlefield. 95 This is not the case, however. The law governs conduct after the victorious completion of combat: "and the Lord your God gives them into your hands" (21:10b). The setting is one where a town has fallen and the victors are assembling captives from among the survivors. The law does not curtail men's rape and subsequent killing or abandonment of women during combat (cf. 20:14). Far from restricting rape in battle, this law gives sanctions to sexual coercion in the aftermath of war. Carolyn Pressler argues that the conditional protasis of the law extends through the phrase whb'th 'l-twk bytk in 21:12a. Thus: "When you go out to battle against your enemies and the Lord your God gives them into your hands, and you take them captive, if you see among the captives a beautiful woman whom you desire and want to marry and bring into your household, then she shall shave her head, and pare her nails." Construed in this way, the effect of the law is to validate a man's long-term possession of a woman whom he has captured by force. In Pressler's view, a primary intent of the law is to provide the means for a man to marry a woman who, as a war captive, has no legally competent family representative to conclude the marriage contract. 97 The woman's parents are presumably dead or enslaved (she is expected to mourn them in v. 13).

    I agree with Pressler's reading of the text, but I think it is important to notice that the woman might also have had a husband and children before her capture. 98 The woman whom the victorious Israelite will marry is identified only as an adult female whom the man finds attractive ('sht 'pt-t'r, v. 10) — not necessarily a virgin (btwlh) or an unbetrothed young woman ('shr l'-'rshh n`rh), as such distinctions are respected only within the Israelite community, where a woman's status as the wife of a husband, or a marriageable (unbetrothed) young woman, determines the degree of a man's offense in having unauthorized sexual intercourse with her. From the victor's perspective that this law adopts, the adult male's prerogative over dependent females (sexual access for the husband, right of disposal for the father or guardian) has no validity among defeated enemies. Given that the woman in this passage becomes married to an Israelite as the victim of capture by military attack, how should we regard the sexual relation depicted here? The provision for treatment of the war-captive woman can be viewed as a prohibition of rape only under the premise that women possess no personhood or bodily integrity apart from the determination of men. The fact that the man must wait for a month before penetrating the woman (21:13) does not make the sexual relationship something other than rape, unless one assumes that by the end of the period the woman has consented. Commentators sometimes entertain this notion, perhaps evoking the familiar psychological phenomenon of a captive's identification with her captor. But to assume the consent of the woman is to erase her personhood. Only in the most masculinist of readings does the month-long waiting period give a satisfactory veneer of peaceful domesticity to a sequence of defeat, bereavement, and rape.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    Okay Leolaia, that did it, I want to become a teacher. All that time sitting behind a computer, writing code, and very little human interaction is taking its toll on me. I was a happier and seemingly brighter person working in retails or manufacturing while working in the education field on the side.

  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    Basically, it's saying that women were property, and a woman whose male relatives, parents or "owners" were all dead in the battle had no owner and was up for grabs?

    So, in their eyes, it wasn't rape so much as claiming a spoil of battle properly, like any other property gained in battle. If you're property, not a person, you can't be violated as a person, either. Well, that makes sense, seeing as the punishment for rape also had more to do with a woman raped being treated more as "damaged goods" rather than the woman being seen as an individual who had been personally violated.

    "The provision for treatment of the war-captive woman can be viewed as a prohibition of rape only under the premise that women possess no personhood or bodily integrity apart from the determination of men. "

    That's the sentence right there.

  • aSphereisnotaCircle
    aSphereisnotaCircle

    But to assume the consent of the woman is to erase her personhood. Only in the most masculinist of readings does the month-long waiting period give a satisfactory veneer of peaceful domesticity to a sequence of defeat, bereavement, and rape.

    Repeat for emphasis

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    God is great. Let his will be done.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Awesome, garyneal. I am yearning for more of a social life too.

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    I remember meeting with the elders once to object to a small bit in a Watchtower, say 5-6 years ago. The article tried to make the case that the Bible does not place women as inferior to men and cited Jesus' treatment of women as proof.

    I do not have a vast knowledge of Hebrew but I had a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance andsome common sense. I felt it was important to point out that this bit of our literature was not true. Global and historical abuse of women was the first effect of a break with God and consequently the dominating males would be mainly ignorant of their obnoxious behavior.I did whole-heartedly agree that Jesus was the solitary exception to this (I love that he chided Martha for wanting to drag Mary back into the kitchen to fix the "visiting speaker's" meal). But I wanted them to know that the Bible itself held the irrefutable evidence for a systemic and abusive attitude toward women. The very evidence is imbeded in the Hebrew words for male and female.

    I don't mean here the neutral bookends ish/man; isha/woman that first show up in creation. But I mean here the sinister pairing of words for the two sexes; words whose ugly germ speaks for itself:zakar--remembered, i.e. a male (of man or animals, as being the most noteworthy sex) and its counterpart: neqebah--female from a primary root; to puncture, lit.(to perforate, with more or less violence) or fig.( to specify, designate, libel):--appoint, blaspheme, bore, curse, express, with holes, name, pierce, strike through

    I am not the least embarassed to say that the Hebrew scriptures are turbulent waters. Jesus is the clear spring.

    The minds that recorded the first part of the Bible were the originators of the very words they scribed.The words themselves are aweful at times. God Almighty to work with what he had in the way of secretaries it seems. It was slim pickings.

    (My meeting with the brothers was bewildering to them and to me. But somehow something had to be said.) Maeve

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    I'm guessing they do because believers generally paint a picture of God as loving and flawless in action, whereas above you're comparing God to the likes of Hitler and saying that God's not that bad by contrast.

    I believe He is loving, and because of that, He didn't hesitate to fight for His people. Otherwise, they would have been annihilated.

    I wasn't comparing Him to evil people - the God of the Bible is incomparable - I'm just curious as to the hue and cry over the supposed atrocities of God when we humans have such a heinous track record!

    Sylvia

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR
    I'm just curious as to the hue and cry over the supposed atrocities of God when we humans have such a heinous track record!

    According to the bible we are imperfect sinners and God is..................?

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