by AK - Jeff 77 Replies latest jw friends
I must admit that despite taking a few swipes at and jibbing - AGuest - Sacramento - tec and snowbird, they have all been kind to me.
This confuses me. I have always lived by the sword but I think their Christian God is using them to try and soften my hard heart.
I must be careful He doesn't waylay me on the road to Damascus.
I love your Gladitoriolesque posts !
I assume you have been watching "Spartacus, blood and sand" ?
I assume you have been watching "Spartacus, blood and sand" ?
No I haven't! I can't stand fake gladiators.
Ah dude, you really should, think 300 meets Rome.
Greetings, all... and may you all have peace!
Dearest Journey... peace to you and I "hear" you. I must admit that I do sometimes ponder why it is that certain folks who often indicate their unwavering and sometimes absolute dislike for my responses... respond to me... indeed, even read what I post. Although I believe such ones would protest and quite loudly, I am wont to agree with your "vision" on this. Thank you, kindly, for your courage in stating it!
Dearest Glad... peace to you, as well! No need to fear... if you were waylayed I have no doubt that you would handle it... well, "glad-ly"! Besides, you're probably like a few others here (and they know who they are) - hard "candy" shell on the outside with a pretty soft "candy" center on the inside - LOLOLOL! Your type always are - LOLOLOLOL! Peace to you!
Dearest Grace... may you have peace, as well! Unfortunately, I must disagree with you. I do realize that you have done a lot more "living" than I, and so perhaps have seen and heard much more. Given that, however, I personally do believe that Christ does have ALL truth... that he had it as a [earthling] man... and has it still... and that he gives it to/shares it with those who belong to him. I certainly know that I don't have all truth... nor even the slightest bit of wisdom... which is why I REJOICE whenever either is mercifully given to and/or shared with me. As you can see, I cannot contain it when such a loving provision is made on my behalf, me... good-for-nothing-servant that I am. I know me (a foolish one) and, hope, therefore, that by the time I've reached your wise years (should my Father will it), that my mind is as strong and clear as yours... so that I may both receive and remember such truths even then. As always, I bid you peace...
as I bid you all!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Dearest Terry... may you have peace! I would like to respond to what you've posted here, if I may - thank you!
Your life tells you what has worked. Your life tells you what has not worked.
I absolutely agree with this statement. I also have learned, unfortunately, that there are those who look for such times (when things are "working") in others' lives and use such as an opportunity to mislead (i.e., "Life getting you down? We have the answer/truth - come join us!"). My Lord does not wait until one's life is in the toilet to call them. He starts the call from the time they come into the world... and continues from there. The truth, though, is that most don't LISTEN... until their lives have "gone south"... by which time a whole LOT of "folks" are calling out to them. Including the loud "boisterous woman."
Life refutes lies. Life supports truth.
Again, I ABSOLUTELY agree. Although, I would say it slightly different: He that IS the Life and the Truth refutes lies. He that IS the Life and Truth... supports truth. Always.
If it ain't workin' it ain't true.
Many would ask you "what is 'workin'"? Many years ago some would have said, for example, that Hitler's life "ain't workin'." Others would have absolutely disagreed with that. Depends on what one means by workin'... and IMHO, it means workin'... for YOU.
Truth is practical.
And simple and elementary. And it is manifest, too, isn't it, in such things as love, joy, peace, faith, kindness, goodness, mildness, long-suffering (patience) and self-control... as well as in mercy and forgivness?
A long life well-lived is our goal.
Again, I absolutely agree... although the definition of "well-lived" would probably vary depending upon who you asked...
Getting to the end of days without regret is the purpose.
And not many can say they are on such a path, can they? And why IS that? For some, it's because they haven't "tasted" the free gift, yet. For those who have had such a "taste"... they know that it is not about the path BEHIND one... but the one in FRONT of one. The path not YET taken, vs. the one(s) taken that led to devastated or empty places.
If you were presented right now with some do-overs.......not having any would be fantastic proof what you believed and lived was truth!
And some of us are "there." I am. I do not regret a SINGLE thing of my life for two (2) reasons:
1. They make me who I am, as a whole... and I like who I am. True, I'm not as "good", etc., as others, but I'm not as "bad" either. I am... okay... just me... and I'm quite okay with that. And THAT is because of:
2. If I hadn't lived the life I have... it may be that I wouldn't have come to know God and Christ at all, or at least as I do. My life... and those in it might not have permitted it. But because I am RIGHT where I am SUPPOSED to be... I did come to know them. And I am grateful. If changing one iota would mean that I would have missed this opportunity, then not one iota is to even be considered for change.
LISTEN TO YOUR LIFE. It is always whispering what is....and what isn't.....truth!
My message isn't very much different: it is listen to THE LIFE. HE is ALWAYS whispering what IS... and what ISN'T truth! To me AND to you! I just acknowledge that it IS him whispering... vs. some unidentifiable "force"... and can't contain it (sorry) and so must share it with any who have ears to hear.
I bid you the greatest of love and peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
Could it be that "truth" is just a property, a property of a system (an object). Just as length
or momentum, diameter or circumference are just properties of a system. Could we not ask
"what is length?" Or "what is length made of?"
Maybe truth, like length, changes according to the system of which it is a part of. And like length,
"truth" would change as the system changed and still be "true."
Be kind, dear AK Jeff... and peace to you.
Making no effort to be 'unkind' to you. If you look at my statement you will see that I object to your lack of solid premise. I see this in nearly every post on this thread by you. You presume and assume 'facts' that are not viable in an intellectual discussion.
As far as any effort to follow you about and discredit your posts [someone intimated as much, though I don't recall who at the moment], I have not not done so. In fact, though I have not backtracked to confirm this, I only have recently commented on your statements within threads that I have started. I often revisit them after a day or two to see what new comments have been made.
As far as the comment by another poster that I may be on the verge of being a 'full blown atheist', this is probably true. I am certainly at that point in my intellectual growth where convoluted arguments based on leaky or nonfactual premise is nudging me toward that conclusion. As I read or speak to Christians I am more and more driven toward that conclusion. Everything they state is conjecture, with no solid truth behind it. And since this thread is about 'truth', it seems an apropos response to call them out. I rarely return 'fire' on the same day due to circumstances. I find that Christians, no matter the brand, seem to drag out the same tired and already failed arguments, usually with a new twist or a red herring or straw man attached. No matter how many times I review what they said, it is the failed arguments and the lack of solid premise which jump out at me.
I suppose this is all because I want to examine truth, not beliefs, which by definition are just ideas accepted, often lacking solid premise to back them.
When a person seeks to declare 'Jesus is truth' or 'the Bible is truth' or similar, then drags out fifty scriptures and three pages of arguments to 'support' them, I have to wonder if we are discussing the same topic. Jesus, God, or variations, are all just mythological to me unless you can back the argument with more than a thumping a Bible.
If you have solid premises upon which to base your faith, then it is no longer 'faith' is it? If you can prove something as fact, then you no longer have to 'believe' it based on some indefinable 'faith'. It is this inability for Christians to see beyond the circularity of their ideologies that is frustrating to me. They declare themselves possessors of 'truth' at it's highest, yet cannot back it with fact. Fact is truth. Christians don't have any facts, just a desire to 'believe' something, and it seems almost anything will do if you look at the spectrum of 'beliefs' within that ideology.
Though it may come across that way, no offense is intended. I just say it as I see it.
Jeff
Ak - Jeff
I feel as though I have solid premises to base my faith. I do not, however, possess scientific proof of this. I believe in creation (and this is a big topic) But I do not dismiss evolution or any scientific proofs. I do not think they are in conflict.
From a creator, I progress to believing in Jesus... not because of miracles performed (though I do not deny them), but because I believe in the love and compassion and mercy and morals taught by him. I admire him. I love him. I believe his words. And I would love to actually meet him, which is the greatest 'reward' of an afterlife to me.
But you are right. If scientific proof existed that there is a God, then this and many other debates concerning Him would not exist.
I understand that quoting the bible to an atheist or near-atheist means nothing. I understand that this would also be frustrating to you because no one seems to understand it. I don't know what to say to help you on your journey. It is your journey. I can pray for you to find peace and truth - and while the actual prayer may be drivel to you, I hope you can at least accept the sentiment behind it.
Tammy
Gladiator -- Thank you. That was sweet of you to say... and also cute. Very cute:)
To me truth is the paradox of something. Once you get to the paradox, where else is there to go. For instance it's not evolution vs creation, its the evolution of creation. A paradox is all encompassing as well and to me that's how the universe/source/god would have to work.
Dearest AK-Jeff...
May you have peace!
Making no effort to be 'unkind' to you.
I accept this, with the caveat that certainly you know one needn't make an effort yet still BE unkind. I thought it was "funny" that I was even to ask and then, for the first time, I read your profile and understood. My understanding is that you WANT to be a "christian" but can no longer justify being so within yourself, given what you now know about "christians"... and so can't find the "foundation" for such a faith (and I don't mean such a "religion"). I totally understand, really, I do.
If you look at my statement you will see that I object to your lack of solid premise. I see this in nearly every post on this thread by you. You presume and assume 'facts' that are not viable in an intellectual discussion.
May I ask you, what would you consider to be "solid" premise?... and point out to you that I DID offer to give you proof...
As far as any effort to follow you about and discredit your posts [someone intimated as much, though I don't recall who at the moment], I have not done so.
Maybe not, but perhaps it looks like that to someone. What it looks like to ME... is that because you cannot reconcile what I share with what YOU experience, you are of the position that none of it is true. I will give you that perhaps it isn't true for YOU... but I assure you, it's true.
In fact, though I have not backtracked to confirm this, I only have recently commented on your statements within threads that I have started. I often revisit them after a day or two to see what new comments have been made.
I think the dear one who spoke is referring to threads I and others have started that you, perhaps coincidentally, show up and comment on. Be that as it may, if WE were unkind or offended YOU in having that discussion... then please accept my most sincere apology. I thought it was only me who had such opinion, but since another seemed to "see" it, too... well, you can see how that could mislead us, both.
As far as the comment by another poster that I may be on the verge of being a 'full blown atheist', this is probably true.
I am sorry to hear that. I certainly regret that you feel the need to abandon the Most Holy One of Israel altogether, simply because you cannot see Him (through seeing Christ) with your flesh. I assure you, though, were you ever to move PAST your flesh... and use your SPIRIT... what you would see and hear far outweighs any wonder that science has come up with, thus far. I personally marvel that people are so easily ready to give up, when the spirit realm... and its wonders and glory... are RIGHT there! Now, you might say "It hasn't been easy, Shelby; I've given it a great deal of time and effort," to which I would have to respond, "Not quite, dear one. True, you may have huffed and puffed... and tried to blow that "door" down... but really, you only needed to take a step TOWARD him... and simply walked through. So, yes, you may spend a great deal of time and effort, but it was the wrong effort... and wasted a LOT of time." But, I'm guessing it's too late for that, now?
I am certainly at that point in my intellectual growth where convoluted arguments based on leaky or nonfactual premise is nudging me toward that conclusion.
Ah, "intellectual" growth. Let me tell you a little something about that, dear AK-Jeff, as it relates to me. Please know that I don't do it to brag or boast in myself, truly, so I hope you take this the "right" way.
(To those of you here who pretty much take issue with most of what I post, you may wish to stop reading here. I truly will NOT be offended if that is what you do. If not, however, I only wish you to know that I am merely stating the truthfulness of what has occurred in my life in order to have a common ground (i.e., intellect) on which to engage with dear AK-Jeff. I may have revealed some of these facts previously, years ago in other threads (if not here, perhaps on another forum); if here, however, you may have missed them for whatever reason (and don’t I know that some of you will go back and review every thread to find them – by all means. I mean, it’s your dime…). Anyway, while this thread is indeed “public,” please know that my response is specifically directed to AK-Jeff and since there is no “law” against doing so here, I am going to reveal a little more about myself which you will most probably take exception to. NOT because such things aren’t true… but because, like the “intellects” I will mention below, YOUR hard hearts simply won’t be able to accept them. Ah, well… there’s not much I can do about that. Oh, and yes, I could have PM’d him; however, that is not the instruction I received from my Lord. So, here goes, from me, a “foolish thing” of God…]
I was an "intellect." Starting the summer before 4 th grade, I was enrolled in the "gifted" programs the remaining of my school years. I had my IQ "tested" (yeah, right!) at age 8... and at that time it was 137. When it was tested again (at age 12) it was 147. At age 15, it was 153. It was tested again once since that... and came in at 162. So, what? So... nothing. Absolutely nothing. I didn't order those tests - my schools did (excluding that last one - that was due to an invitation to apply for Mensa, which I later changed my mind about). What did they mean to me? Well, besides getting out of classes in high school (I was put in the M.A.F.I.A. - Male And Female Intellectual Association, which was an independent study program)... leaving high school with a 4.01 gpa... scholarships to USC and UCLA (neither of which I was able to take advantage of)... and 3.83-4.0 gpa in university (which did not translate to the same in law school, unfortunately, because I worked full time and so only studied half the time)... not much. Again, I don't bring this out to brag or boast; I personally consider it all irrelevant. I bring this out to say that I get it... I get how certain things... certain arguments or statements made by "religion"... can assault the "intellect." Indeed.
What assaulted mine most, however, was not just the fallacies of religions (which did make an assault, yes, indeedy - which is why I raised the plethora of questions that I did with the WTBTS), but how people of "intellect" viewed others and how they allowed their "intellect" to let them believe themselves "superior" to others. I never got that. I always felt that my "smarts" was something I was to use to help others... not patronize them. It certainly wasn't my doing that I was smart (it had to be "in the genes" as my older sister is an autistic savant)... and it wasn't their doing that they were a bit less so (according to man, I mean - I don't believe that "smarts" and "intellect" really has absolutely nothing to do with any intelligence scores or bell curves). But what struck me the most is that my being "intellectual" didn't fit with the world in which I lived at the time. I was black. Smart, yes, but black. Which meant two very different things to most non-black "intellects." THEIR "intellect" told THEM... that I couldn't BE smart... and be black. Couldn't happen. And that others (females, homosexuals, handicapped, etc.) were also inferior. Although I knew better (and the non-black female intellects blew me away the most due to their hypocrisy - they were decrying the treatment they received from men... while dishing out the same BS to those who were not "like" them).
So, MY intellect said that "intellect" was flawed, too, that indeed it was only an empty force that a small elite few used to "lord it over" others. Just like religion! It also taught me one thing that IS true... and that another "intellect" (Socrates) knew as well: that the man who knows something...knows that he knows nothing. And so, I've pretty much always thought of myself as knowing nothing... no matter what my "IQ" score said. Sure, I could solve logic, math, and other problems with great speed... BUT... big whoop. Not much use for that in the 'hood. However, I knew there was someone that not only knew something... but indeed everything. NOT because the Bible told me so... but because my INTELLECT told me so. It told me so long before I ever started school, let alone took any tests. And so at some point my intellect told me to go in search of HIM (which is how I ended up IN the WTBTS - those tricky buggers!)... and not earthling man who THINKS he knows everything... or CAN know everything... but doesn't... and cannot... without him. I learned the WTBTS to be among such "men".
That same intellect almost stopped me from finding him, however, when he actually called me. That intellect said, "No one is speaking to/calling you; you're tripping, let it go." Praise JAH he called again... and asked "Why don't you answer?" and when I didn't, but dismissed it, he called again, and even did a third time. And... that time I answered... and found him. NOT because of my intellect. Quite to the contrary - because I pushed PAST my intellect and RETURNED to the knowledge that I really knew nothing at all. It was then that I could hear him, when I ALLOWED myself to remember that I really didn't know anything at all and that perhaps there WAS someone calling me. And so I said, albeit tentatively, "Okay... I’ll "play along"... who are you, please?" And he came to me.
It was when I acknowledged that all of the intellect in the world wasn't going to get me "in"... or reveal a darn thing of THAT world to me... that I got "in." Because I went through the DOOR... and not through my intellect.
As I read or speak to Christians I am more and more driven toward that conclusion.
I totally understand. Totally. I would, too, if it were not that he himself called me. I heard him... I answered... and I found him.
Everything they state is conjecture, with no solid truth behind it.
Yep.
And since this thread is about 'truth', it seems an apropos response to call them out. I rarely return 'fire' on the same day due to circumstances. I find that Christians, no matter the brand, seem to drag out the same tired and already failed arguments, usually with a new twist or a red herring or straw man attached. No matter how many times I review what they said, it is the failed arguments and the lack of solid premise which jump out at me.
I can see how you would come to that, yes. Trust me, if what occurred with me had not... I most probably would be where you are. I certainly wasn't going to join, become a part of, or have any dealings with another religion. THAT ship had sailed. I was NOT, however, expecting what occurred to occur. But it did. And, well, here I am.
I suppose this is all because I want to examine truth, not beliefs, which by definition are just ideas accepted, often lacking solid premise to back them.
Yes. And so I answered your question with what IS true... not with what I believe is true.
When a person seeks to declare 'Jesus is truth' or 'the Bible is truth' or similar, then drags out fifty scriptures and three pages of arguments to 'support' them, I have to wonder if we are discussing the same topic. Jesus, God, or variations, are all just mythological to me unless you can back the argument with more than a thumping a Bible.
I cannot speak for others, but I didn't drag out not one single scripture (yes, I know I used a double negative, but it SOUNDS good, doesn't it?). Not one. And my response was all of, what, one sentence (which is a feat for me, as you may know)?
If you have solid premises upon which to base your faith, then it is no longer 'faith' is it? If you can prove something as fact, then you no longer have to 'believe' it based on some indefinable 'faith'.
This is true. But I didn't answer based on my FAITH that my Lord is the truth. In that case, I might well have included a verse or two... for those who needed to see it in writing... those who LACKED faith. But you asked a simply question... and I responded. Simply... and truthfully... NOT based on faith, but based on knowledge.
It is this inability for Christians to see beyond the circularity of their ideologies that is frustrating to me.
Me, too! Many "christians" often say things out of a sort of, "Well, because," kind of belief. But if you ask them to PROVE it... then you get the whole "Well, God is a mystery, and no one can know..." sort of response. I hate that. It was one of the things about the WTBTS "anointed" that drove me crazy. How do you KNOW? And no one could explain. How can that be? How can you have received an anointing... WITH holy spirit... supposedly FROM God... through Christ?... and not explain it? Or show evidence of it? Never made sense to me...
They declare themselves possessors of 'truth' at its highest, yet cannot back it with fact. Fact is truth.
Well, the truth is that you cannot possess truth... which is an indication that anyone who says they have "it"... is lying. Truth is not an "it". It is a HE... and he cannot be possessed. Now, true, there are MANY things that are TRUE... just as there are many things that are false. But the Truth is not a thing - he is a person, albeit a spirit. Therefore, while I can't TELL you the "truth" per se... I can tell you what IS true). I can, however, SHOW you the Truth... well, introduce you to him so that he can show you himself...
Christians don't have any facts, just a desire to 'believe' something, and it seems almost anything will do if you look at the spectrum of 'beliefs' within that ideology.
This is true of so-called "christians," those who call themselves such because of a need to identify themselves as "followers of Jesus." But they are not followers, really, because you can't follow something you can't see... or at least hear. And they admit they neither see him nor hear him. SOOoooo... MY "intellect" asks, "Then how the heck do you know WHO/WHAT it is that you're following? You don't. You just THINK you're following something/someone." See? True christians, however, are not blind and deaf. They KNOW who they're following... because they HEAR... if not even SEE him. The only way for YOU to understand that, however, is for YOU to see or hear him, as well. Otherwise, you're never gonna get it. You will continue to think that it isn't true, doesn't happen, can't. Do YOU see?
But YOU have to take the first step - you have to at least entertain the possibility that you CAN hear and/or see. Because if you don't even believe there IS a "door"... you won't push on it to get it opened. See? It's sort of like the scene in "Indiana Jones (the third one)" where he had to just step out over the chasm without being able to see the "bridge" because it was camouflaged within the surrounding stone. His eyes couldn't SEE it... until he actually stepped out ON it. He stepped OUT, though... because he BELIEVED it was there. And it was...
Though it may come across that way, no offense is intended. I just say it as I see it.
And I take you at your word. My sincere apologies for thinking that you meant to be unkind.
May the underserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the MOST Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies... and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, my Lord and Master, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you... if you so wish it. May they grant YOU ears to hear... if you so wish it... when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:
"Come! Take life's "water"... the holy spirit of God... by means of which one can hear... and SEE... the Most Holy One of Israel, by hearing and seeing the Holy One of Israel... FREE!"
YOUR servant, a slave of Christ, and a VERY foolish thing of God, as you can see by what I've revealed in this post, that will most assuredly subject to even more than the usual "ridicule" (and, if not, praise JAH!)...
SA
