God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff 322 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  PSacramento

  superpunk,

  You may not realize it ( or perhaps you do) but not everyone believes in the "bible" God.

  The OT God is simply ONE version of what SOME people Believed God to be, that is why that God seems at odds with the NT God in some people's view.

  As it has been said, IF the OT scribes and the Old Covenant had been "right" there would h ave been NO NEED for God to "send" His Son.

  As a Christian that found God through Jesus OUTSIDE the bible and started to study the bible AFTER the fact, I ( and I speak soley for myself) saw the reason God needed to send his Son to "straighten" people out.

  The view of a cruel, uncaring, punishing God ( as seen in the OT at times) is one that I do not and can not reconcile with My heavenly Father, maybe because I relate to God VIA Jesus, actually...no myabe's about it, it is because I relate to God Via Jesus.

  DO I believe in the God of the OT? the bringer of death, destruction, genocide, mutilation and so forth?

  Nope.
• 

  superpunk

  I acknowledged that there may be versions of Christianity that have found ways to disconnect the OT monster completely....which seems difficult, if you are at the same time believing in Jesus....who cited OT legends (which he must have known were wrong) and appeared to think God was the same God the Jews experienced. (At least from the alleged eyewitness accounts - perhaps you don't like those either.)

  That doesn't seem like "Christianity" to me. It's spirituality, but I don't see how it could have anything to do with Christ. But that's another thread.

  It seems to me, from what you've described your particular version of Christianity as, that you have to honestly state that you have no idea why God permits/causes suffering. You're sure he must have a good reason for it (although you're not sure why you're sure of that) though. After all, he is God. And apparently, for people who have realized that the ancient Holy Texts are hooey, but would still like to believe in a deity, "God" is simply whatever you want him to be at the moment. He cares about us, but he can't do anything about our pain, and may never be able to, but rest assured he's out there.

  Surely you realize how impossible to comprehend this must be for a skeptic or interested person. Christians all claim they're worshipping this one dude, but they can't agree on anything about him, what he likes, what he wants, or what he's like. Their answers on why HE/IT permits/causes suffering are just as scattered.

  Having a discussion with a variety of Christians is subsequently frustrating. It's almost like a skeptic would need EACH of you to publish your very own book of personal theology, before engaging in a discussion with you. Because otherwise, we attempt to approach from what we perceive is a fairly common Christian belief, and are met with "Well that's not what I believe!" *Sigh*

  As a Christian that found God through Jesus OUTSIDE the bible

  How is that done - exactly?
• 

  PSacramento

  Superpunk,

  Most Christians worship and believe in the same God, they just prefer to focus on certain parts of what they preceive to be his nature to justify certain things, Heck I do that too, guilt as charged.

  Its our attempt to rationalize out faith.

  I do not think that God allows/permits suffering, I think the world is the way it is because it can be no other way.

  There is good and bad, there is happiness and suffering.

  We do NOT KNOW what God is, we can TRY to understand what he MAY be, but we hardly undersdtand the world we live in, much less the universe and so, much less God.

  Religion is man's attempt to understand the un-understandable.

  Christianity is a PERSONAL "religion" or at least it should be and as such, each one of us has a unique and personal realtionship with God Via Jesus so, yes, you will ( and should) get varied answers to questions.

  I don't believe in organized religion for the very fact that it tries to take away that personal relationship.

  At least that is my view.

  You asked how I found God through Jesus outside of the bible?

  Probably the same way most did before there was a bible, through the HS.

  May not be the answer you want to hear or need to hear or even agree with, but it is the truth.

  Now, how did the HS come to me?

  Well, that is something !
• 

  superpunk

  I'm sorry, PSac - but you appear to be contradicting yourself.

  Just a few posts ago, you offered an analogy which I believed was an explanation of why God allows suffering. It appears to me that you were saying he does so because he realizes we need to learn some sort of lesson, as shown in your analogy of why you sometimes allow your children to find out that doing a certain thing will harm them.

  Then in your last post, you say;

  I do not think that God allows/permits suffering, I think the world is the way it is because it can be no other way.

  Did I read something wrong? Am I simply not understanding your point?

  Now, how did the HS come to me?

  Well, that is something !

  That is pretty much what I want to know. I frankly don't understand the claims of people who say they know Jesus without the bible. I can accept that someone says they know God in some ambiguous manner, but you were more specific. The impression given is that some force appeared to you, said "What's up? I'm Jesus, this is God. PSac, God - God, PSac. Hey Psac why don't you learn more about us in this book that we had written about ourselves?" I am very interested in how exactly that happened. It's not everyday that you get to talk to someone who has met the Almighty. ;-)
• 

  PSacramento

  Superpunk,

  My analogy was an attempt to understand that PERHAPS God, IF he permits suffering, may do it in that manner and I may be right or I may be wrong, I don't know.

  I don't think that God allows for MAJOR suffering, like the type we see during war and natural disasters, but PERHAPS he allows us to "bloddy our noses" from tiem to time so that we may learn something.

  Perhaps, I don't know.

  That is pretty much what I want to know. I frankly don't understand the claims of people who say they know Jesus without the bible. I can accept that someone says they know God in some ambiguous manner, but you were more specific. The impression given is that some force appeared to you, said "What's up? I'm Jesus, this is God. PSac, God - God, PSac. Hey Psac why don't you learn more about us in this book that we had written about ourselves?" I am very interested in how exactly that happened. It's not everyday that you get to talk to someone who has met the Almighty. ;-)

  That is a very personal question, as I imagine you know.

  I don't know if I have the skill to convey what happened to me...

  Suffice to say that God and I had issues for many years and at times hatred towrds God was there, in particular how God "allowed" innocent childern to suffer when he could do something, when IF I HAD the power, I WOULD DO SOMETHING !!

  I hated God for that, for his allowance of pain and suffering of innocents.

  Then one day, God answered.

  The rest is very personal...
• 

  superpunk

  My analogy was an attempt to understand that PERHAPS God, IF he permits suffering, may do it in that manner and I may be right or I may be wrong, I don't know.

  I don't think that God allows for MAJOR suffering, like the type we see during war and natural disasters, but PERHAPS he allows us to "bloddy our noses" from tiem to time so that we may learn something.

  Perhaps, I don't know.

  I don't think you were so non-committal in your prior response. It seemed like you were saying that not only does he allow it, but he's doing it for our benefit, so we have no business describing him as neglectful. That's what your conclusion suggested (rather strongly) to me, imo.

  Then one day, God answered.

  The rest is very personal...

  If you told me, you'd have to kill me - right? :-) That seems to always be the way... :-(
• 

  PSacramento

  I don't think you were so non-committal in your prior response. It seemed like you were saying that not only does he allow it, but he's doing it for our benefit, so we have no business describing him as neglectful. That's what your conclusion suggested (rather strongly) to me, imo.

  Hmmm, I didn't think I was, sorry.

  Again, to be clear, I don't think God allows/permits/advocates suffering as a mass level and I think that at a personal level, we do enough of it to ourselves. BUT, IF God does allow for suffering, the only way I can RECONCILE that with God being a loving God is to view it like a parent that allows a child to suffer so that they can learn.

  I hope that is more clear.

  If you told me, you'd have to kill me - right? :-) That seems to always be the way... :-(

  LOL, nothing so dramatic, it is just VERY personal, the only person I have shared it with is my wife and that's because she was instrumental in me finding Jesus.
• 

  superpunk

  Again, to be clear, I don't think God allows/permits/advocates suffering as a mass level and I think that at a personal level, we do enough of it to ourselves. BUT, IF God does allow for suffering, the only way I can RECONCILE that with God being a loving God is to view it like a parent that allows a child to suffer so that they can learn.

  I hope that is more clear.

  *Head spinning* I understand where you're going - the difference between us is simply that I don't see a need to "reconcile" the issue to uphold a preconception I have about the lord. I did way too much of that back in the day. "Jehovah just needs to prove to Satan that humans can't live in a world of earthquakes and other natural disasters!" I just weigh the evidence, and say "Either God hates us, he has no power, he isn't real, or he doesn't care." You know God personally, apparently, and know that none of those things can be true. Hence - reconciling seemingly impossible concepts.

  To me, that seems a little like when they interview neighbors and relatives of convicted criminals. Inevitably, they can't imagine that the convict could have done such a thing. "He was such a quiet boy". And maybe they're right.

  LOL, nothing so dramatic, it is just VERY personal, the only person I have shared it with is my wife and that's because she was instrumental in me finding Jesus.

  I'm going to guess, then - that you provided God with a kind of "fleece test" involving your wife? Blink once if I'm close. ;-) Were you ever a JW? Just trying to figure out a timeline, since I don't think I've ever (actually) come across a Christian who found Jesus/God without ever opening a bible. Did it go, then - Find Jesus - Become a JW - Leave JW?
• 

  superpunk

  Christianity is a PERSONAL "religion" or at least it should be and as such, each one of us has a unique and personal realtionship with God Via Jesus so, yes, you will ( and should) get varied answers to questions

  Just one more comment on this...

  Christians all know the same guy, right?

  Let's say that I get three people who claim they are your friend, and ask them fairly nonspecific questions about you, which any real friend of yours should know. About how old is PSac? Is he outgoing or withdrawn? Does he have pets?

  Then all three of them give me different answers.

  Would I be justified in assuming that not only are none of them actually your friends, but they probably have never even met you?
• 

  PSacramento

  superpunk,

  I don't need to reconcile because I don't think that God allows suffering, I was speaking hypothetically in regards to IF I believed God allowed what I would need to do to reconciel that with MY view of a loving God.

  I didn't provide God with a test or demand an anwswer from God, as a matter of fact,at that point in time I was the farthest from Gad I had ever been.

  I was never a JW, but my family keeps trying to bring me into the light, LOL !