God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff 322 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    For, creating nothing would have meant zero suffering.

    Would you rather have not been born, LeavingWT? I don't. I'm glad I'm alive, even with all the problems.

    God was complete, lacking nothing, in want of nothing.

    Creation did not perfect God in any way, but it did allow manifestation of what was there. Why are we humans creative beings even for things that have no utilitarian purpose?

    Will Art feed me? Will Music keep me warm? Will Poetry and Literature slake my thirst?

    The least useful things we create are often considered the highest expressions of our humanity, but they satisfy no physical needs. They express our souls. Our non-material selves. It is in our nature to create. It is in God's nature to create--life. We create according to our free will, we ourselves proceed from God's free will. God wanted to make us share in his being, wisdom and goodness.

    Imago Dei.

    The Universe isn't finished yet, and neither are we.

    BTS

  • sir82
    sir82
    Please find a way to create a free will that is not free to choose evil as well as good.

    I think you may miss my point.

    "In the beginning" there was God and nothing else. It's a really blank slate. It's God's prerogative ahead of time to determine what will be "evil", what will be "good", what will be "quantum mechanics", what will be [whatever].

    Why choose to create (1) evil, and then (2) make the world such that not "following the rules" just so inevitably leads to said evil, not only for the chooser but for countless generations afterward?

    I can easily conjure up in my imagination a world with "free will" where unimaginable suffering is not intrinsic - why couldn't an omnipotent being design the world that way?

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    sir82 -- Everything you've written resonates with me. The alternatives do not. Admittedly, most of us go with what makes sense, on some level.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    God didn't "create" evil, it evolved.

    :)

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    I can easily conjure up in my imagination a world with "free will" where unimaginable suffering is not intrinsic - why couldn't an omnipotent being design the world that way?

    Most philosphers think that philosopher Alvin Plantinga has mostly "solved the problem": There are two possibilities, if God is bound by logic:
    1. There are possible worlds that even an omnipotent being can not actualize.
    2. A world with morally free creatures producing only moral good is such a world.

    It is possible that God, even being omnipotent, could not create a world with free creatures who never choose evil. Furthermore, it is possible that God, even being omnibenevolent, would desire to create a world which contains evil if moral goodness requires free moral creatures.

    A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all. Now God can create free creatures, but He can't cause or determine them to do only what is right.

    For if He does so, then they aren't significantly free after all; they do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so.

    As it turned out, sadly enough, some of the free creatures God created went wrong in the exercise of their freedom; this is the source of moral evil. The fact that free creatures sometimes go wrong, however, counts neither against God's omnipotence nor against His goodness; for He could have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good.

    This is mostly a rehash of my post 14490 on page 5 of this thread.

    So I personally accept that we are living in the best of all possible worlds. I am glad for free will, even if free will creates the possibility for evil. The goodness of the existence of free will outweighs the badness of evil actions as outcomes of free will.

    My question then: But why then would he not stop the consequences of doing evil?

    Why wouldn't he make a bullet shot at an innocent person as soft as a daisy?

    Why couldn't he make the air refuse to carry hateful, evil words?

    BTS

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt
    Why wouldn't he make a bullet shot at an innocent person as soft as a daisy?
    Why couldn't he make the air refuse to carry hateful, evil words?

    Indeed. A God of constant, ongoing miracles, would be awesome. After all, he's juggling billions of prayers. Why not add a few more things to the list? (Not to mention keeping the known Universe running.)

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    My question then: But why then would he not stop the consequences of doing evil?

    Why wouldn't he make a bullet shot at an innocent person as soft as a daisy?

    Why couldn't he make the air refuse to carry hateful, evil words?

    If every bullet knowingly fired at an innocent person refuses to do harm.

    If every hateful, evil word is silenced by the very air that refuses to resonate.

    If every evil choice has no consequence whatsoever.

    Then can I choose evil? This world would only allow me to choose good. It would refuse to comply with my evil choices.

    Would I, therefore, have the capacity to freely will anything at all?

    To stifle the outcome of every free evil choice is no different than stifling the thing (free will) itself.

    A world like this one would be a world in which evil actions were impossible. Freedom of the will would be completely void.

    If we were to carry the idea of such a world to it's logical conclusion, even evil thoughts would be impossible, our brain tissue would refuse to think evil thoughts.

    BTS

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Indeed. A God of constant, ongoing miracles, would be awesome. After all, he's juggling billions of prayers. Why not add a few more things to the list? (Not to mention keeping the known Universe running.)

    Perhaps, perhaps not.

    I don't know....

    I do know that if I had absolute power I would be an horrific ASS !

    So maybe what I THINK God should be might probably not be a good idea, know what I mean?

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt
    A world like this one would be a world in which evil actions were impossible. Freedom of the will would be completely void.

    I would like constant miracles that prevented natural disasters. Outside of human freewill and such.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    I would like constant miracles that prevented natural disasters. Outside of human freewill and such.

    No earthquakes? no hurricanes?

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