God and Suffering (page 32)

BurnTheShips

ignore the argument in the matter as 'different' when God is involved.

Not necessarily ignore, but perhaps dismiss for a variety of possibly valid reasons. That said, I don't take Perry's view, as I hope my prior posts here have shown.

BTS

PSacramento

I do find it a bit troubling, Psac, that your somewhat unique approach to God [via Jesus] has created a convenient construct [and as much as that term seems to imply sarcasm, I honestly do not intend that here] for avoidance of the OT God largely. I do believe, that for you, it works, though. I am also not denying the possibility that, in your mind, it is fully satisfying, as that comes through in your comments.

I am curious, though. Since in your experience, relationship with God came first [or perhaps Jesus], then later the Bible, not as guide to God, but as what? Do you, in this position, believe then that the OT can be discounted, that the NT can be viewed in much the same way as a stand alone sequel? That the story line can be fully separated from the OT account of Genesis for instance? How can this be reconciled?

I appreciate all the kind words and sincere respect that has been shown to me :)

AKJeff,

I do NOT beleive that the OT, TYPICALLY, gives us the correct view of God and that was one of the reason that Jesus came to us and that the NT God seems at odds with the OT god.

The OT has its place but I do NOT believe that ALL of it is "inspred", just as I do NOT believe that ALL of the NT is "inspired".

I do NOT beleive that God caused the deaths of innocents and children, nor that he ordered their deaths at the hands of the Isrealites.

I believe that, just like nowadays and in the past, people like to use God as aa "escapegoat" to the atrocites they commit.

PSacramento

PSac, as long as you don't shove your god down my throat, you and I are good bro. Thanks for not condemning me as part of your belief system.

God, Jesus, FAITH, should never be forced on anyone, under any circumstances.

I can't condem anyone that is, at their core a good person, as I see that you are.

Regardless of their belief system and perhaps inspite of your "lack" of belief, I hold your views in a more profund way.

I don't believe in a God that condems those that are good people, that are "good christians" even if not christians, jeuts because they do NOt believe in God, it makes no sense to me that God would do that. Jesus made it clear that, in the "end" there woudl be those that many are surprised to see at the "end" of things and I think that, IF God is a God of Love (like I know God is) that God, with his infinitr love, KNOWS US better than we know ourselves.

Perry

If I fell and was injured, my mother would run to help - immediately. She would never have waited 4000 years to come to my aid.

Of course parallels have a beginning and and ending. Your mother isn't a King where her word is LAW is she? Also the 4000 year wait is false. Gen. 3: 15 was uttered and gave man hope and a reason for faith. Faith will Justify says the the Lord.

If she saw me suffering, she would comfort me, not ignore my pain. She demonstrated her love openly and quickly. If I fell, she never deemed it necessary to condemn me and my future offspring for a long period of languishing before assisting me.

And this is what the Lord did. He gave them skins to wear, and uttered his resucue plan before sentencing.

My mother did not establish impossible tests for me to test my loyalty and cruelly thrust her beforehand hidden agenda for justice upon me.

Impossible tests like don't eat of a particular fruit. God is King or he isn't. Pretty simple. I don't think Eve believed God. This was a mistake.

If 'justice' became an issue - then both punishment and relief were quick to follow. Once she announced that justice was served [like Jesus on your cross], there was no 2000+ year 'waiting period' for the relief to 'kick in'.

Perhaps there is a greater good served with God's time table rather than yours? How could we be able to tell without being God ourselves? I'm personally going with God for the ride. He can do with me as he sees fit.

What 'hit' did God take? He killed himself with a death that wasn't real - it was 'overturned' three days later. Kinda like taking on someone else's debt - then legally abolishing that debt three days later. Nothing was lost for him. Still, we are loosing - we are still suffering here - and God is sittin' on a nice cloud somewhere enjoying the pain we are in? Nonsense it all is. Justice hasn't been served. Sentence is still being served.

The death was real...everyone saw it. The price was PAID, not abolished. How can you say nothing was lost for him? Yes we are suffering here....believer and unbeliever, but for somewhat different reasons and under different circumstances. We've all sinned, right? Are we currently getting the punishment we deserve? No. So, while we may suffer, it is less than what we deserve and most likely less than the suffering that we would mete out to the WT if we could, even though we are just as guilty of lying as they are.

Perry

PSac writes:

I can't condem anyone that is, at their core a good person, as I see that you are.

How can you reconcile your view and Jesus' view below?

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Furthermore:

Ps. 139: 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

God knows our thoughts. If a movie was played on this forumn for all to see our last week's thoughts, who among us wouldn't suffer severe shame?

PSacramento

How can you reconcile your view and Jesus' view below?

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was saying that He ( Jesus) was NOT Good?

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Paul would know, wouldn't he?

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul was speaking of specifics and was also pointing out the need for humilty and self-awareness of ALL OF OUR failings.

But to answer your original question, How do I reconcils Jesus's view?

I don't, I don't judge people, I leave that up to God and Jesus, the only one that can.

So I do NOT say that a person is evil or that a person is will be condemend based on this or that because I don't know nor am I qualified.

I can however state a view based on what I "see" of a person's qualities so it is not hard for me to say that someone that seems basically a good person, is a good person.

Just as it is not hard for me to say that someone that is a serial killer is a bad person.

Perry

But to answer your original question, How do I reconcils Jesus's view?

I don't, I don't judge people

PSac,

I'm not trying being nit-picky..... but you did judge someone here:

I can't condem anyone that is, at their core a good person, as I see that you are.

If we are good, why is there need of a savior in your opinion?

PSacramento

Perry,

I don't think you understood what I posted...

I can however state a view based on what I "see" of a person's qualities so it is not hard for me to say that someone that seems basically a good person, is a good person.

Just as it is not hard for me to say that someone that is a serial killer is a bad person.

If you wanna view that as making a judgment, that is fine, I don't view it as such.

You ask me that, "if we are good why do we need a saviour" ?

The same reason that we are under Grace and still need a saviour.

We may be good and we may do what is right out of love for our fellow man, with no motive other than love, but we are not perfect and we still have much to answer for.

I know I do.

AK - Jeff

I will never find any reconciliation that can explain how God, if he is real, could ignore the pain and suffering on this planet.

In discussion this topic, though, something has become very clear to me. If I was invited to Perry's church I would absolutely never give it consideration. I don't want to worship any God with the qualities Perry attributes to him. If Psac invited me to his church, or ATJ invited me to a BBQ, I would go. I don't know if I would ever worship Psac's God either - likely not. But Psac's God has followers that are willing to think openly and refreshingly. ATJ's bbq is another matter. That depends on the kind of beer he drinks. If leavingwt is there - I'm in. After that we are all jumping on that plane to hell if I recall.

Let's party.

Jeff

PSacramento

AK,

I don't go to a church, if I feel the need to go to one I will go to any denomination for God is there.

As for a BBQ, if you are ever up in the Toronto area, let me know, I cook a mean steak, shrimp and lobster I I serve ice cold Heinken :)

By the way, "my" God doesn't demand or even ask you to worship "him", he only asks that you love your fellow man and to understand WHAT that truly means.

God and Suffering

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