Discussions like this do about as much good as trying to figure out how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin.
Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe 114 Replies latest watchtower bible
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cameo-d
If the soul lives on, and if Jesus lived before he came in physical form to earth, and now, lives again, then that would certainly open the door for reincarnation theories, wouldn't it?
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Mary
BlueGrass said: Mary there are so many errors in your post but I don't have the time to correct them all.
This---coming from a newbie who's actually braindead enough to be "considering returning to the Kingdom Hall? Don't make me laugh.
I'll just say a few things. Don't ever let a theologian or any serious bible student hear say Sheol is a prison for spirits, you will get laughed off the first of the earth.
I sincerely doubt I would. Sheol is accepted as a spirit world by numerous professionals who have spent years and decades studying ancient languages. Need a couple of examples?
- A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (p. 982) defines Sheol as: "The underworld... whither man descends at death" They trace the origin of Sheol to either sha-al, which means the spirit world to which mediums directed their questions to the departed, or Sha-al, which refers to the hollow place in the earth where the souls of men went at death.
- Langenscheidt's Hebrew/English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p.337) defines Sheol as: "netherworld, realm of the dead, Hades."
- The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia in volume IV, p.2761, defines Sheol as: "the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek: Hades."
- Keil and Delitzsch state that "Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form from sha-al, to demand, the demanding, applied to the place where inexorably summons all men into its shade." [Commentaries On the Old Testament, Vol. l, p. 338]. The lexicographical evidence is so clear that Princeton scholar, B.B. Warfield, stated that with modern Hebrew scholars, there is no "hesitation to allow with all heartiness that Israel from the beginning of its recorded history cherished the most settled conviction of the persistence of the soul in life after death....The body is laid in the grave and the soul departs to Sheol. [Selected Shorter Writings of Beniamin B. Warfield, pp. 339,345] (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p.72,73)
You are the first person I EVER heard make such a claim. ALL Jews, theologians, and most Christians agree that Sheol simply means grave.
I'm not sure what planet you originate from Blue Grass, but I suggest you actually do some research on the subject yourself before you make such a ludicrious claim. Sheol most certainly can mean "grave" or "pit", but as has already been demonstrated, it is also used in describing the afterlife throughout the scriptures. To be so narrow minded and automatically assume that is can ONLY mean "grave" or "pit" when considering the vast number of scriptures that support the idea of life after death, is a typical knee-jerk response from someone who clearly likes to shoot his mouth off before he actually stops and thinks. If I am truly "the first person" you've ever heard say that Sheol is a place for departed souls, then you really need to read more.
I also like how you take 1 Peter 3:19 out of context by not quoting the following verse "through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." In Peter's next letter he makes it clear as to what spirits in Noah's days he was talking about. 2 Peter 4:"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to Tartarus, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;"
I did not take anything "out of context". I made mention of 1 Peter 3:19 as an example of the scriptural idea of life after death and that's it. There is no clear consensus amongst scholars or theologians as to who it's referring to. Some believe it is speaking of the "disobedient spirits" who sinned in Noah's day, others take the view that it is referring to the spirits of the departed. While the scripture you use in 2 Peter 4 is most definitely talking about the angels from Noah's day, there is nothing definitive that links the scripture in 1 Peter 3:19 with 2 Peter 4.
It's obvious you know very little about the Bible, such as the difference between Sheol and Tartarus, but I won't hold that against you
Well thank god for that. I was really worried there for moment that someone with your infinite knowledge of the scriptures would hold it against me that I know "very little about the bible." I feel truly blessed.
it's those who applauded your post as if anything you said made sense who should be the ones who are ashamed of themselves because they know very little of the book they claim to live by.
Ah yes. I think it's wonderful that someone like you comes on here and automatically claims to know what everyone else believes and if those beliefs are true or not. Of course, you judge them by your own imaginary yardstick, but I guess that shouldn't be a surprise. By the way, I notice that you apparently had no rebuttal for any of the other scriptures I used and simply chose to ignore them. In true Dub-dumb fashion, you selectively zero in on one point, ignore everything else, lambast those who agree with me (or anyone else who can prove that the bible does promote the idea of life after death), and smugly suggest that no one understands the bible as well as you do.
Leolaia says "Too bad that Revelation refers to the "souls" (Greek psukhés) of the dead in heaven (6:9-11)."
Most theologians and serious Bible student agree that the book of revelation isn't inspired but even assuming that it is one would just say it's using symbolic language there.
Another case of you misplaced smug attitude. Leolaia is by far, the most intelligent poster we have on here. She has a PhD either in Religion or Ancient languages and I'm pretty sure she falls under the category of a "serious Bible student". So I'd think twice before you tried uh 'teaching' her anything.
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Blue Grass
Mary says "I sincerely doubt I would. Sheol is accepted as a spirit world by numerous professionals who have spent years and decades studying ancient languages. Need a couple of examples?"
I'm not sure why you posted the first 3 examples as none of them state Sheol as being a prison for spirits as you claimed in an earlier post nor do they claim Sheol to be a place of consciousness. The last example you posted based on it's title appears to be a proganda piece promoting the idea of life after death.
Mary says "Sheol most certainly can mean "grave" or "pit", but as has already been demonstrated, it is also used in describing the afterlife throughout the scriptures."
Completely false! Where does the word Sheol ever mean afterlife in the Bible? The word Sheol is used 65 time in the Bible. Of the 65 times it's used, I would like for you to just show me ONE scripture in the entire Old Testament where the word Sheol in used in any other way other than the grave/pit. Sheol never met anything close to an afterlife nor is it ever used that way.
Mary Says "I did not take anything "out of context". I made mention of 1 Peter 3:19 as an example of the scriptural idea of life after death and that's it. There is no clear consensus amongst scholars or theologians as to who it's referring to. "
Are you kidding me? It says Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." You think these spirits are/were human? Why would only the people from Noah's day be in prison? Why not the people of Sodom and Gomorrah or the people of Abraham's day or Moses' day or King David's day etc.? Trying to rationalize the spirits who "sinned in Noah's day" as being former humans makes no sense. Especially when you consider that Angels(spirits) commited a sin in Noah's day that wasn't commited in anyone else's day and taht they ultimately went to a prison(Tartarus) for it.
Mary says "Another case of you misplaced smug attitude. Leolaia is by far, the most intelligent poster we have on here."
Well actually me and Leolaia are in agreement in the fact that the Book of Revelation wasn't written by John or any of Jesus' followes and that it doesn't harmonize with the rest of the Bible so I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.
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Robdar
Blue Grass, I am concerned that you might have a mistaken notion that Jews do not believe in an afterlife or that we regard Sheol as only a pit or grave.
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Leolaia
Just to clarify, my doctorate is in linguistics; I studied classics as an undergrad. But that's neither here nor there.
The thread I linked on the other page gives many examples of Hebrew and Canaanite conceptions of the afterlife and the abode (not prison) of the dead.
Blue Grass, I am concerned that you might have a mistaken notion that Jews do not believe in an afterlife or that we regard Sheol as only a pit or grave.
Such a notion (re the afterlife) occurs in the OT, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the apocrypha and pseudepigrapha, in Josephus, in the Talmud, and of course in the NT and in the apostolic fathers.
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Blue Grass
Robdar says "Blue Grass, I am concerned that you might have a mistaken notion that Jews do not believe in an afterlife or that we regard Sheol as only a pit or grave."
I was reffering to the Jews as how their beliefs and pratices are recoreded in the Bible. It appears based on your wording that you believe you are a Jew but I would like to point out that the indivuals who died in the holocaust, invaded Palestine, and migrated to United States are Europeans and do not come from the middle east. Also in the Bible one would have to present genologicial records to prove he was a descendant of Jacob in order to be considered a jew. Even though you may praticed a form of modern Judaism you don't have any relation to the Jews in the Bible hence you have no special knowledge of the topic at hand as you tried to imply.
Leolaia can you share an example of a notion of an afterlife(not ressurection) in the OT?
P.S How do I quote people with that yellow box?
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Leolaia
Well, examples mentioned in the other thread include Samuel in 1 Samuel 28 (see the lengthy discussion of this chapter in that thread), Rachel in Jeremiah 31:15 (compare Pesikta Rabbati, 3, 83), the rephaim and the dead in Sheol in Job 26:5-6, Psalm 22:28-29, Isaiah 8:19-22, 14:9-15, 29:4, Ezekiel 32:18-25 (compare the rephaim in Canaanite texts as having an active existence in the underworld), the tacit allowing of the feeding of the dead in the tithe stipulation in Deuteronomy 26:14 (cf. Tobit 4:17 which recommends one to "be generous with bread and wine on the graves of virtuous men"), the references to the descent of the nephesh to Sheol (or its ascent from Sheol), or the dead person joining the assembly of his/her ancestors (Genesis 15:15, 47:30, Judges 2:10, 1 Kings 2:10, 11:43, 13:22, 14:31, 15:8, Psalm 30:2-3, 49:14-19, 86:13; cf. 1QH 11:19-22), the probable reference to the release of the "nephesh of a man who has died" into the air confined inside a tent at death which could defile unsealed containers (Numbers 19:13-16; compare the Aramaic inscriptions cited in the other thread about the nephesh of the dead king residing inside the stele), and so forth. The OT fits very well in the general Semitic concept of the afterlife during the period.
With the later rise of apocalyptic literature and more elaborate eschatologies, the conceptual complexity of statements about the afterlife blossom considerably in the Second Temple period, as found in the literature of the pseudepigrapha, Josephus, the NT, the Talmud, and elsewhere.
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mrsjones5
"Discussions like this do about as much good as trying to figure out how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin.'
How about a bunch of Elvises?
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Leolaia
Even though you may praticed a form of modern Judaism you don't have any relation to the Jews in the Bible hence you have no special knowledge of the topic at hand as you tried to imply.
Do the Jews of the Bible include the first-century Pharisees? E.g. the rabbis who went on to found rabbinical Judaism.
According to Josephus, the Pharisees "believe that every soul is immortal, but that only the souls of the virtuous pass on into another body [in the resurrection], while those of the wicked are punished with an everlasting vengeance" (Bellum Judaicum 2.163). And of course the Essenes had a well-developed concept of the afterlife, as can be found throughout the Enochic works.
It was the Sadducees who didn't believe in an afterlife, at least not a substantive one that the other Jewish parties believed. That is why the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection.
