schipper, you never answered the post's on your previous topic, and you go and open another topic, go back to your previous topic please
Are we following men?
by jookbeard 80 Replies latest jw friends
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dinah
Child, please.
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musky
Sounds to me that your reasoning could apply to many different religions. It's o.k. if the leaders make mistakes. Just give blind obedience , and have faith that God is using those leaders as his own mouthpiece. Just pick and choose what you want out of the bible to determine what God is trying to convey through imperfect man.
I do hope that you will use your own mind, and not want it controlled by someone else.
Thank you for your comments.
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villabolo
Pjschipper, are you following men? And yes, they are false prophets. They speak in the name of Jehovah simply by calling themselves his witnesses. Everything else that you have mentioned about running ahead and treating them like representatives of God could be considered blasphemy on your part by those who take Christianity seriously. Christianity is not about where you go but whom you go to.
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (Deuteronomy 18:20-21)
villabolo
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Rabbit
pjschipper:
" How many righteous instructions they have given us and help so many to manage their lives in harmony with Jehovah's will and avoid harm to themselves. JW's have a strong faith, and many of us don't have the time to do research or understand so many details. I put unimportant things in a file. The important beneficial teachings upfront. It does no one good to harp on the unimportant things. They will be revealed in time. We were told to expect tests of our faith, and we are having that now."
So! Explain to me how The Governing Body's "righteous instructions" "...in harmony with Jehovah's will..." protected my JW mom? You see -- she followed to-the-letter their "instructions" AND SHE DIED. The GB taught all of us (once upon a time) that any type of blood transfusions -- were a SIN against God.
After -- AFTER -- my mom died following the GB's "righteous instructions" they changed their minds again. Now, she could have taken blood fractions specifically -- haemoglobin. That would have saved her life.
So, she passed her "test of faith", DIED, then, The Truth © changed? Yes, it did according to the WTB&TS, INC.
Yet, does Truth ever change? Only if the one giving 'it' is a hypocrite.
If you don't answer this...I'll know you are just a troll, and not somebody truly interested in knowledge.
By the way...do you know HOW the Governing Body changes those NewLight bulbs?? They VOTE amongst themselves! They don't all "see" 'eye-to-eye' on spiritual things -- even tho' they are supposedly "the only true conduit" from Jah to humanity.
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BabaYaga
Bravo and well said, Mister Rabbit (and hugs over our shared needless losses.)
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AGuest
May you have peace! I would like to respond, if I may - thank you! It is lengthy, as you've asked a lot here and I have been directed ro respond, so I ask your kind patience. Thank you!
Are we following men?
If you are following anyone… or anything… other than the Holy One of Israel, the Son of God, Christ… and yes, that includes the WTBTS and its leaders, etc., yes… you are following men. Matthew 23:10; Matthew 23:2; John 10:8, 12, 13
But that is dangerous!
Indeed. Matthew 15:14; 23:13
But I need mind control, don't you?
Lordy, no!
I want my mind controlled by my King Jesus.
First, dear pjs, why would you want your mind controlled by anyone other than yourself?? Second, our Lord does not want to control your mind, dear one – that would make you a robot and thus, no longer a FREE moral agent. In truth, he does not want to control you at all. He wants… for you to live your life in a way that glorifies God… and do so freely… of your own free will… NOT because you’re afraid of what will happen to you if you don’t… but because you WANT to… because… you LOVE God, and Christ, and your brother, and your neighbor… and even your enemy. Matthew 5:43-48 (and please pay close attention to 5:46, 47); Luke 6:27, 32-35
Don't the scriptures say there are other anointed kings?
“Other”? Than whom? Those who are members of the WTBTS? Such ones are not anointed, dear one. For one, if they were, they could explain it to you. Secondly, if they were, they would openly and lovingly inviting you to join with them, not as some second-class person, but as one of them entirely. Revelation 22:17 Now, it is true that some of them have been INVITED… and in response to hearing such invitation may have participated in partaking of the “flesh and blood of Christ.” Revelation 3:20 But none of them have been chosen. Yet. Matthew 22:14. How so? Because they are not yet “clean” - John 13:10 - they have not yet “QUIT touching the unclean thing.” It is only then… after they “separate themselves”… and after they quit touching the unclean thing… that they can be taken in as sons and daughters. 2 Corinthians 6:17, 18
But… yes, there are those of us who have received an anointing with holy spirit, the “oil of exultation.” None of us, however, are kings, yet, because that does not occur until our Lord returns. 1 Corinthians 4:8; Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Revelation 20:3, 4. Until then, HE is the ONLY king among us at this time. Psalm 110:1; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Hebrews 5:9 - see footnote, NWT Ref. Bible. Until then, we… are only servants… to the Household of God… to those who go with them… and to the world. Matthew 23:11 – see footnote, NWT Ref. Bible; Luke 10:27-37.
To be providing spiritual food to others?
The faithful and discreet servant who feeds us… is Christ, dear one. And he, as the Holy Spirit, is our only teacher. Once you receive an anointing with holy spirit, which anointing is poured out by and from the innermost parts of the Holy Spirit, who is the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, then you don’t need ANYONE to be teaching you… for the anointing you received will teach you. 1 John 2:27; John 15:4-7; John 6:56; John 14:26; 2 Corinthians 3:17 (see footnote, NWT Ref. Bible); 1 John 5:6; John 14:6; Matthew 28:20b.
Through that anointing, Christ speaks directly to you… and leads YOU… into ALL truth. John 10:27; Hebrews 1:1, 2; 1 John 2:1
If this JW Org. is not, where are they? Show them to me.
I am here … and there are others. Some visit this site; most don’t because they have other “territory.” This is mine, for as long as our Lord directs me to be here. We do not belong to a “religion”… nor do we belong to a “church.” We belong… to Christ. And no other. He is our "husbandly owner." We do not claim a denomination. We are, simply, christ-ians… “chosen/anointed people”… by means of holy spirit. We do not attend any church because we ARE the church... “living stones”… in the “temple” of God, which temple is not handmade, but is being built by Christ, the Son of David and the Cornerstone of God’s temple, as a place for God to dwell. 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Corinthians 3:16; Acts 17:24; Ephesians 2:19-22; Matthew 18:20; Matthew 24:28
We are… the Congregation of the First Born, the Body of Christ… children of light… in which the Most Holy and Holy Ones of Israel… dwell. John 14:23; Romans 8:9-11
Does things like speculation on dates important for salvation? (that is wrong to do so). If Jesus did not know the date how would men know how to figure it out?
They are of absolutely NO use at all. If there was a date and time, our Lord would have told us, either when he was with us… or after he poured out his spirit upon us. John 15:15; Matthew 24:36 He didn’t, however, because, as you say, HE didn’t know. And if HE didn’t know… there is NO way anyone of earthling man could know. Thus, dates and times are of no importance – we are to stay awake regardless of what we might think we “see”… or do not “see”… because WE are to walk by FAITH… and not by sight!
I found out that the gentile times does not apply from the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian empire. to 1914. Wrong for them to use this thinking.
Indeed, absolutely wrong!
Does this make them a false prophet?
Unfortunately, dear one, it does. This, and many, many, many other things…
How many righteous instructions they have given us and help so many to manage their lives in harmony with Jehovah's will and avoid harm to themselves.
Whoa! What, may I ask, is “J[ehov]ah’s will”? I promise you, they do not know it… for if they did, they would herald it, as well as live it. It is found in the entire 58 th Chapter of Isaiah. There, the Most Holy One of Israel responded to Israel’s complaining that although they had completed a fast to Him, He apparently wasn’t listening because their tribulations and hardships had not be lifted. And what was His reply? This:
“Indeed, you people were finding delight in the very day of your fasting, when there were all your toilers that you kept driving to work. Indeed for quarreling and struggle you would fast, and for striking with the fist of wickedness. Did you not keep fasting as in the day for making your voice to be heard in the height? Should the fast I choose become like this, as a day for earthling man to afflict his soul? For bowing down his head just like a rush, and that he should spread out mere sackcloth and ashes as his couch? Is it THIS that you call a FAST… and a day ACCEPTABLE to JAH?”
What did the Most Holy One mean? He meant:
“Oh, c’mon, seriously?! You people LOVED to fast so that you could make your neighbors and subjects WORK. Indeed, you would even fight and argue about how and when to do it, and wickedly press others hard to do it, too. And didn’t you do it so that your prayers would be heard (i.e., something for themselves and not as something for the Most Holy One of Israel)? But is the fast that I choose to be like this, a day where men are to be hard on their bodies? When they bow their heads so low so as to say, ‘Oh, woe, look at me, I’m fasting,’ and then sit around on old rags and in ashes so as to appear ‘righteous’ by means of fasting. Is THAT what you think is a fast to me???”
He went on:
“Is not THIS the fast that I choose? To LOOSEN the fetters of wickedness, to RELEASE the bands of the yoke bar, and to send away the crushed ones FREE, and that you people should TEAR IN TWO… EVERY yoke bar?”
In order words, stop putting LOADS on the people, and BINDING them to senseless rituals and fastings and rules... and do's... and don'ts… and… and... He goes on:
“Is it not the dividing of YOUR bread out… TO THE HUNGRY one, and that YOU should bring the AFFLICTED, HOMELESS people into YOUR house? That, in case you should see someone naked, YOU must cover him…”
all of which I don’t think need explanation… but here’s someone that the WTBTS not only MISSES… but actually TRANSGRESSES against:
“and that you SHOULD NOT HIDE YOURSELF FROM YOUR OWN FLESH.”
I ask you… how are we taught by the WTBTS to treat those who are fleshly family but are not Witnesses? Or those who were but are no longer Witnesses? Or those who they have “expelled” from their “synagogues”? We are taught… to “hide” ourselves… from our very own flesh… our own blood relatives.
How, though, did our Lord teach us to be? Whom did he condemn (other than the wicked priests, scribes, and religious leaders who “shut up the kingdom of the heavens” before men)? None. Not one. Many who had transgressed the law were brought to him. Yet, he condemned not one of them. Rather, he openly, freely, lovingly, compassionately, and kindly… FORGAVE them. He RELEASED them. He did not say, “Oh, you need to go get that sin under control and THEN come back to me… and ‘probably’ I might forgive you.” No, when people considered “unclean” under the Law were brought to him, he healed them… by FORGIVING them. When a woman caught in the act of adultery was brought to him, HE said, “Neither do I condemn you.” When a murderer showed faith, he did not condemn the man for his sin but ASSURED him that he would be with him in paradise. And he did it, NOT because any of these did anything spectacular. He did it… because… he WANTED to… as a reward… for their FAITH.
The only people he condemned… and it was their works, and not them personally… were the “scribes” (those who write/copy the Law)… and the “Pharisees” (non-anointed religious leaders)… both of whom HE said “seated themselves in the seat of Moses.” Meaning, they made themselves the people’s ‘mediator’! And yet, my Lord even forgave these.
Who then are WE… ANY of us… to sit in judgment of ANY others? Yet, those of the WTBTS do. Why? First, because they are unclean in their own hearts. Just like the wicked Pharisees of my Lord’s day in the flesh… they hypocritically place burdens on people that they themselves are unable to carry. And what does the Most Holy One of Israel think of this? I take you back to Isaiah 58, verse 9, where He says, among other things, that we are to REMOVE… “the poking out of the finger and the speaking of what is hurtful.”
Second, they do it because they follow… Paul and NOT Christ. But Paul was wrong in his judging and his direction to judge… which error he eventually corrected as shown when he wrote to the Romans. Romans 14:4(note, the letter to the Romans was written after those to the Corinthians, which letters almost destroyed the Corinthian congregation, which is why Paul and the 12 did not associate for some 14 years!)
As ambassadors substituting for Christ, however, WE have an OBLIGATION… to go RELEASING… FORGIVING… and showing MERCY. NOT judging, condemning… or shutting up the kingdom of the heavens. Luke 6:37; Matthew 6:14
JW's have a strong faith,
Actually, dear one, that is not true. The truth is that they do NOT have faith at all. If they had FAITH… they would NOT need the institution that is the WTBTS which they call “a visible representation of the Lord on earth!” (See “Proclaimers” Book, page 219). They would know that after the temple at Jerusalem, the last VISIBLE representation… was Christ himself… and that after him… there IS no visible representation at all! His presence… is INVISIBLE! They would not, then, do as Israel did in the wilderness when they felt Moses to be taking too long to return: built a “golden calf”… a VISIBLE representation… which they began calling “Jah.” They would have FAITH… in the One the Most Holy One of Israel lifted up… just as Moses lifted the copper serpent… and NOT take their eyes off him! They would TRUST that he IS going to return… and wait, patiently and faithfully, for that return. But as one "sister" said to me, "People can't worship what they can't see!"
AND… they would NOT begin beating their fellow slaves in the meantime… nor preaching an UNrighteous message of “If you don’t follow us you’re gonna die!” They would PREACH… that God is not slow… but doesn’t want ANY to die… and so HIS time table is righteous. And… they would NOT be “craving the Day of JAH,” because they KNOW that day does mean the end of life for some. Should we WANT that? If God does not want ANY to die… who are WE to want ANY to die???? Amos 5:18.
Dear one… WE… are to be “like” Christ! God is LOVE… and love… BEARS all things, BELIEVES all things… HOPES all things. Should we not be hoping that ALL will come to know the True God, the Most Holy One of Israel… and should we not only be praying for that, but living our lives as a testament to it? Didn’t Christ? How did he feel when Jerusalem rejected him? Did he say, “Well, too bad, you no-good goats! You’re all gonna die at Armageddon?” NO. Emphatically, NO. He said: “How I longed to gather you… like a hen gathers her chicks.” But he didn’t cut them off forever. He went on and said that her house was abandoned to her… UNTIL she said “Blessed is he…” We now know that because of him, ALL Israel... fleshly AND spiritual....will be saved. God will NOT renege on His promise to Abraham. Romans 11:26
and many of us don't have the time to do research or understand so many details. I put unimportant things in a file. The important beneficial teachings upfront.
Of course, you don’t. Who does? Where is it written that you would be required to do so? Is it not written: “To the making of many books there is NO end… and much devotion to them IS wearisome to the flesh?” It is!
It does no one good to harp on the unimportant things. They will be revealed in time.
What, exactly, are those “unimportant things”? Things the WTBTS can’t explain? Well, of course, they’re “unimportant”… because they would only be important if they could explain them. Which they can’t. Why? Because they are “leaning on their own understanding,” rather than relying on the Holy Spirit.
We were told to expect tests of our faith and we are having that now.
Of your faith… in WHAT… and how are you having that?
Look how Job was tested, have you experienced this test, would you curse God and die?
Such are not tests of our faith, but of our loyalty and integrity. And yes, I have experienced a couple/few Job-like tests, and, yes, they were/are hard. I am still undergoing one and will, perhaps, the rest of my life. My reply to the one testing me, however, which is NOT God but our Adversary, Satan the Devil… was then and is now: “Is this the BEST you can do? Is this ALL you’ve got?” No, I am not willing to offer up my eternal life, my SPIRIT, for relief from a tribulation in the flesh... which is of no use, at all. John 6:63
However, dear one, the Most Holy One of Israel does not test earthling man in the way you suggest, any longer. Why? Because there is no need. Let me reason with you why: before our Lord arrived in the flesh, certain men had their faith tested. Noah, Abraham, Moses, many others. Then our Lord arrivedin the flesh and by him, the man Peter was told the outcome of a test of his faith. Peter, however, was CERTAIN that he would not fail. And, yet, he failed. Three times. Before the cocked crowed. Did my Lord reject him for such failure? No. Why? The man Thomas blatantly said he would NOT believe unless he saw some proof of the holes in my Lord’s flesh. Faith would have required him to believe… and NOT see the holes. Did my Lord reject him? No. Why? Because… we will ALL… ALL of us… fail… at some point or another… tests of our faith. Do NOT doubt it! BUT… we have a RANSOM… the same as did Peter and Thomas. They got to see him face to face and so were assured of his forgiveness for their lack of faith. We… can EXERCISE FAITH in that ransom (i.e. be assured that our expectation of what we HOPE for… FORGIVENESS… will be granted!)
If Jesus takes his lamp stand from this Org. all will know with out a doubt, and he will lead us into one that of his choosing.
Surely, those of every other “faith-based organization” has said the same thing. And the WTBTS has said none of those have God’s spirit. Yet, many, many of them stand. How is the WTBTS any different? It is not. The TRUTH is that our Lord did not establish a new religion… or organization. Indeed, because of him, the Most Holy One of Israel brought the last “approved” one to a [spiritual] end. And there is to be NO other… until he returns.
To that end, our Lord’s lamp stand has never been with that Organization. Ever. They are just another false light, dear one… calling for God’s sheep… the children of light… to come to THEM… rather than leading them to the One whom the Most Holy One of Israel directed us to LISTEN to… and KISS… the TRUE Light… and no other. Because we are “children of light”… searching for truth and true light… we are attracted to them. Why? Because they call themselves the “truth.” Which is what we are seeking! But the TRUTH… is that there is only ONE Truth (John 14:6) and ONE True Light (John 8:12). And through him, there is only ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE hope, ONE Lord, ONE God, ONE Father… (Ephesians 4:4-6). Indeed, there is only to be ONE law… between Israel and the alien resident… and yet, they have at least two: (1) heavenly vs. earthly hope and (2) some to eat/drink, some not. Yet, ALL who left Egypt, whether Israel or part of the vast mixed company, ate the manna and drank from the rock mass… that is Christ! It is how they ALL stayed alive in the flesh then… and how the Household of God that is Israel today and all who go with them will stay alive… in SPIRIT!) 1 Corinthians 10:1-5; John 6:49; Exodus 12:44, 48, 49
It is not for us to run ahead of our King.
Dear one, one would have to at least catch up with him, perhaps even walk with him, in order to run ahead of him. The WTBTS... and thus you...are not running ahead of him. The TRUTH is that THEY follow Paul... and YOU are trailing far behind… because they have prevented you, young child, from coming TO him. For HE said:
“If ANYONE is thirsting, let him COME TO ME… AND DRINK!” John 7:37
Faithful obedience is what he requires.
Yes, but faithful obedience to WHOM? Let me ask you and you tell me, of whom was our Lord speaking when he said “anyone” at John 6:50? And at John 6:51? Of whom was he speaking when he said, at John 6:53, “UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood YOU HAVE NO LIFE YOURSELVES?” A small group? A “little flock”? Did he not say that that he would call other sheep and that they would become ONE flock with the little flock? How, then, are there still two separate flocks of sheep? And did God not so love THE WORLD… that He gave His only-begotten Son? Or does it say that God so loved the Jews… or God so loved the “little flock”… or God so loved “the 144,000…”? Who are you to be faithfully obedient TO?
Dear one, the WTBTS is not requiring you to be obedient to God OR Christ… but to them. Let me reiterate the verses above, so as to give you a glaring example:
They say: only those “of the anointed” (i.e., who we approve as such) should partake of the flesh and blood of Christ.”
What, exactly, however, did CHRIST say? I shall show you:
“I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that ANYONE may eat of it… and NOT die. I am the LIVING bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life… of the world. Most truly, I say to you… Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood… you have NO life in yourselves. He that feeds on MY flesh and drinks MY blood… has everlasting life, and… Ishall resurrect himat the last day; for MY flesh is TRUE food and MY blood is TRUE drink. He that feeds on MY flesh and drinks MY blood remains in union with ME… and I… in union with HIM.” John 6:53-56
And yet, they tell YOU… do NOT eat and drink. I ask you: how is it, then, that YOU intend to live forever? And how to you plan to be resurrected? According to my Lord, YOU have NO life in yourself… and you certainly can’t resurrect yourself… so how, exactly, is it going to occur for YOU… if you don’t eat and drink the flesh and blood of Christ?
If you talk against his appointed servants, you talk against him and who he has chosen.
This is true; however, these are NOT his appointed servants. They are “false christs” (i.e., false “anointed”) and false prophets. Imposters. And we should not be surprised for (1) Satan KEEPS transforming himself into an angel… or messenger… of LIGHT; and (2) many false christs and false prophets will come into the world to mislead IF POSSIBLE… EVEN the chosen ones. Matthew 24:24; 2 Timothy 3:13
The TRUTH is that you have been mislead, dear pjschipper… and are being misled still. But you don’t have to be, for the Spirit and the Bride are STILL extending the invitation to “Come!” Christ IS the Door of the Ark [of the Covenant] and that Door… that Narrow Gate… has NOT yet been shut! John 10:7; Matthew 7:14; John 14:6
If, then, you are wishing and thirsting, by the power of the spirit that is in me, holy spirit, which spirit and power I received from the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, from and through His Son and Christ, my Lord and Savior, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH… I invite you, too, to “Come! Take ‘life’s water’… holy spirit from God, which spirit will bubble up in YOU to become a life-giving fountain… FREE!” Revelation 22:17
It is a FREE gift from God… to all who are asking out of a clean heart and pure motive… NOT for personal or empirical gain or proof… but for the further building up of the temple of God, the Body of Christ, the congregation of the Firstborn. Luke 11:13; James 1:6; James 4:3; Acts 8:18, 19; Acts 19:2
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH (Psalm 68:4) of Armies, and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA (“Jah Saves; Salvation of Jah”) MISCHAJAH (“chosen/anointed of Jah”), be upon you… and your entire household… if you so wish it.
I am your servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with, and a slave of Christ, to time indefinite,
SA
P.S. I can/will provide further “scriptural” support and backup for everything I’ve stated to you here, if you need it. I have not because I am hoping the “law” of Christ is being written on your heart, so that you do not need it written on stone tablets… or on paper in delible ink. However, I also know that some lack faith and need to “see it in writing.” If that is the case, absolutely no problem – I am your servant. All you need do is ask. Again, peace to you!
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Mickey mouse
I could write a well thought out reply (I've done it once or twice in my time here ) but I could sum it up with this:
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Tea drinker
One of the things which I noticed most about your post was your implicit suggestion to just ignore the awkward questions. You also stated that you put such things in "a file." I am sure that the organisation would find that reasoning admirable because it puts them in a win-win situation: "do everything we say but forget about our mistakes when we mess up."
You stated that many Witnesses ignore the unimportant things. The problem arises however when one tries to classify doctrinal errors as either important or unimportant; how does one choose? If one has not had a family member die because of refusal to take a blood fraction (before the "new light") then I suppose filing away this "unimportant" error is fairly easy. If one had not foregone an opportunity to study at university because of talks given by prominent speakers in the late 60s and early 70s then shrugging the matter off would also be no difficult thing to accomplish. Unfortunately there are many people who have had to come to terms with such tragedy and to them I would imagine that these mistakes are far from unimportant. There are many more examples of "minor errors" within the organisation as well by the way-- the errors of men, not God. God did not lead these unfortunate victims to where they are now but men have and it can therefore be said that those who followed these men were led by them (I believe that answers your question).
I don't suppose that I am one to preach because I also filed away awkward questions for many years (it is called cognitive dissonance) but you may one day come to a crossroads when you find that there is no more room in that file to place awkward pieces of information.
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tigeress
i try following men but they run away! ;) ... can't think why?!?