Jesus.....God or God's son?

by digderidoo 280 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • restrangled
    restrangled

    Sorry, the Trinity does not make sense to me.

    So in Gods's image I've got 3 being's running the show....(I'd like to talk to my other two about a few things)....that is, if it applies for women. Does it?

    Once again, If you have 3 seperate beings, and they are all equal,........thats it, they are all equal. they are not going to pray to each other.

    Where is the common sense in all of this? A Father and son cannot be one at the same time. It just strikes me as stupidity. They are "one" in their thinking/or beliefs. Not physically.

    r.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Restrangled,

    I can sympathize, because I take it one step further than you: NONE of it makes any sense to me.

    Talking snakes, human/animal sacrifices, invisible persons, etc.

    -LWT

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, restrangled.

    Probably, I think that Mr. leavingwt has explained to you kindly.

    He explained to you like this.

    According to the Trinity doctrine, The Father's position (office) is greater than that of Jesus, while Jesus was on Earth.

    I think that you should understand this explanation.

    Once again, If you have 3 seperate beings, and they are all equal,........thats it, they are all equal. they are not going to pray to each other. Where is the common sense in all of this?

    Why do you have to think so?

    "Praying" is mutual communication.
    It is like a "mobile phone" in contemporary.
    Is it strange for you that a son talks to his father with a mobile phone?

    Moreover, there is the "other person" within us.
    Are not we consulting with that "person of our inside", when determining something?

    possible
    http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa said:

    when does 3 persons become 3 Gods?

    trinitarians want the best of all worlds, they want to say 3 can be one God while retaining the 3 separate so they can pay lipservice to all the massive contradictions this creates.

    leavingwt good links but they are not the bible which is always my point for people to understand trinity and the doctrine of it the one place they cannot goto is the bible ^^

    they have made a whole religion be about saying a circle is a square, you say 'but it's a circle? and they sa 'nope it's square but it's nature is circle.' you say "but it can't be both?" they say "it isn't both it is square but it's position is circle." you say 'arhhhhh!!!'

    Reniaa

    My reply:
    I am not sure who said 3 persons to become 3 Gods. I certainly have never said or beleive that. Nor do trinitarians beleive that, at least not those who understand it. Again, 3 seaprate persons who operate in perfect harmony. 3 Gods would not be a tri-unity...that would be polytheism. The trinity is 3 persons whose operation is as one entity, or one god.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Spike Tassel (Post 96): The Bible teaches that Jehovah had no beginning and has no end. The Bible teaches that Jesus was the first of all creation (so Jesus definitely had a beginning, even as the Word in heaven), and was not given immortality until his death, because otherwise his sacrifice would have been meaningless, and not bought any of us out of our sinful condition. The Bible does not teach that the holy spirit has a name. It seems to many that only a child who died before its official naming ceremony would be nameless. These are the facts as I see them right now.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Spike Tassel (Post 96): The Bible teaches that Jehovah had no beginning and has no end. The Bible teaches that Jesus was the first of all creation (so Jesus definitely had a beginning, even as the Word in heaven),

    My reply: firstborn of all creation...meaning preeminant, or first in rank. Not first-created, firstborn. He joined the ranks of creation upon his birth.

    and was not given immortality until his death,

    My reply: He emptied himself to become a man, and upon his resurrection was glorified and given back all he emptied himself of.

    because otherwise his sacrifice would have been meaningless, and not bought any of us out of our sinful condition.

    My reply: Not meaningless- he has emptied himself

    The Bible does not teach that the holy spirit has a name.

    My reply: It is shown to do the same things Jesus does.

    It seems to many that only a child who died before its official naming ceremony would be nameless. These are the facts as I see them right now.

    My reply: Keep looking...get a real translation instead of the New World MisTranslation. Set aside your Wt material. You may learn something.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Spike Tassel (Post 100): The Bible is not a book of philosophy. It is a book for the common, humble person whom the proud may refuse to teach. "Firstborn" regarding Jesus' pre-human "birth" as an angel means exactly what "firstborn" would mean if you were married and your wife had any children.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Sorry, the Trinity does not make sense to me.

    Think of it this way, Restrangled, you are one person, composed of Mind, Body and Soul.

    I always seem fall back to CS Lewis when it comes to trying explain this. Ultimately, the nature of God is beyond our limited comprehension.

    You know that in space you can move in three ways - to left or right, backwards or forwards, up or down. Every direction is either one of these three or a compromise between them. They are called the three Dimensions. Now notice this. If you are using only one dimension, you could draw only a straight line. If you are using two; you could draw a figure: say, a square. And a square is made up of four straight lines. Now a step further. If you have three dimensions, you can then build what we call a solid body: say, a cube - a thing like a dice or a lump of sugar. And a cube is made up of six squares.

    Do you see the point? A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two-dimensional world, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three-dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways - in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.

    Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings - just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal - something more than a person. It is something we could never have guessed, and yet, once we have been told, one almost feels one ought to have been able to guess it because it fits in so well with all the things we know already.

    You may ask, 'if we cannot imagine a three-personal Being, what is the good of talking about Him?' Well, there isn't any good talking about Him. The thing that matters is being actually drawn into that three-personal life, and that may begin any time - to-night, if you like.

    What I mean is this. An ordinary simple Christian kneels down to say his prayers. He is trying to get into touch with God. But if he is a Christian he knows that what is prompting him to pray is also God: God, so to speak, inside him. But he also knows that all his real knowledge of God comes through Christ, the Man who was God - that Christ is standing beside him, helping him to pray, praying for him. You see what is happening. God is the thing to which he is praying the goal he is trying to reach. God is also the thing inside him which is pushing him on - the motive power. God is also the road or bridge along which he is being pushed to that goal. So that the whole threefold life of the three-personal Being is actually going on in that ordinary little bedroom where an ordinary man is saying his prayers. The man is being caught up into the higher kinds of life - what I called Zoe or spiritual life: he is being pulled into God, by God, while still remaining himself.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    no Spike tassal...it does not. You need to look at the meaning of the word as it had in the time it was penned. Do so, you may learn something. Jesus was not an angel prior to his human birth. He was God, and remained such.

  • Spike Tassel
    Spike Tassel

    Spike Tassel (Post 101): Where in the Bible does the Bible say what you're saying?

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