Name Things JWs Believe That Are Not Actually Biblically Provable

by minimus 231 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Chalam

  Hello Rennia,

  Cross is a third century english word derived from the latin word cruz which originally also meant stake. Witnesses have only made an issue out of this because Christianity has adopted the cross as an Idol.

  Forget the latin, that is a later translation, the new testament was written in greek, no red herrings please!

  Now, have you understood what is the greek word for "cross"? Yes, it is stauros, there is no other word.

  So did Jesus die on a stauros? Yes.

  Was it a pole or stake? Possibly.

  Was it a cross? Likely (considering the seismic importance of Christ's death and other evidences).

  Is this knowledge necessary for salvation? No.

  Are the WT correct in their dogma that it was a pole and not a cross? Highly unlikely.

  Why the "new light" and u-turn on this matter from the WT? Is is just to become even more exclusive "christians" and demonise the church? Undoubtedly.

  Now back to the pole, if I had one I would want something across the top for the snake to wrap around.

  Looks like someone else agrees!

  File:MosesandSnake.JPG

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  PSacramento

  I am curious, is there any historical or archelogical evidence of anyone being nailed to a stake and NOT impaled on it?

  I know there is some info on people being impaled on stakes, but I don't recall ever reeading about evidence of someone nailed to a single piece of wood.
• 

  reniaa

  Hi chalam I do not know your source but it is incorrect

  the basic translations for stauros is stake, as it was for xylon - stake/tree as it was for cruz - stake the argument is that these stakes could have had crosspieces but at the time of Jesus's death the word was not identified until later centuries by a crosspiece on it even if one was used. it was stake word with or without a cross piece at the time of Jesus's death.

  the only claim cross users have to validate ther use of it is

  a/ he could have died on a stake that had some kind of cross piece (though definitely not latin cross that you have on your altars since this was a 100 year later method) so we can put cross

  b/ cross can also mean many different methods and did originally even if time and religious devotion to it and assumption in the later 3rd century of the then latin method of impaling was assumed to be how Jesus died meant it evolved the word to implicitly mean only one method and thats the one you have around your necks.

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin

  On what basis do you say Chalam's source is incorrect?
• 

  reniaa

  hi Psacremento

  crux simplex was a very simple method used on criminals at that time heres a later artists rendition of it

  Crux Simplex

  Image: Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) Crux Simplex was a single upright stake or post upon which the victim was tied or impaled. It was the simplest, most primitive cross used for capitol punishment of criminals. The victim's hands and feet were bound and nailed to the stake using just one nail through both wrists and one nail through both ankles, with a wooden plank fastened to the stake as a footrest. Most often, at some point the victim's legs would be broken, hurrying death by asphyxiation.

  http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://z.about.com/d/christianity/1/0/K/9/CruxSimplex139x250.jpg&imgrefurl=http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/tp/crucifixionforms.htm&h=250&w=139&sz=25&tbnid=TyARp8zIsjMhfM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=62&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrux%2Bsimplex&hl=en&usg=__rvLLvsff2yOmWjMdVw7lHvOaMcE=&ei=-qBTSqvcC9jRjAfL48iNCQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=6&ct=image

  I want to make something clear that this is not really for me about the shape of what Jesus died on. but purity of translation

  Jws saying torture stake in NWT is very accurate to the original words involved and that is what the gospel writers were inspired to write, a building in effect but not what type of building. so we should keep it that way to the original wording that at the time of writing was not define by crosspiece usage at all and four gospel writers were not inspired to indicate shape beyond that they were using a word that meant torture/execution stake and gave no indication of there being a crosspiece even if one was used. some words xylon can be translated just as tree thats how basic they kept this word with no shape indicated at all.

  Acts 17:29 (New International Version)

  29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill.
• 

  Chalam

  Hello Reniaa,

  You are plain wrong. Grab a dictionary of koine greek and start looking for the word for cross.

  I have mentioned it more than once already but it is stauros.

  If you don't believe me then take a look yourself.

  Here is my source which I already posted http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4716.htm

  The word crux is latin and appears in the latin vulgate, and early translation Vulgate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  My advice is check your facts firsthand before you go teaching others or you might end up with egg on your face.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa...You are not being completely honest. The word the NWT uses the word 'torture stake' where the word 'stauros' appears in the original Greek...The Wt says that the word stauros in the bible means upright stake or pale. This is true but stauros also described a variety of wooden structures used for execution during Bible times, including t-shaped structures like the cross. The WT limits 'stauros' to meaing a stake or pale but the definition is more broad than that.
• 

  PSacramento

  Hi Reniaa,

  I have seen the works of Justus beofre and he has actually more picture of the cross than the stake, nevertheless, it is not what I woudl call historical or archelogical proof.

  There is proof that the cross was used, and example is the Alexemnos graffiti.

  I would like to know if there is any proof of someone being nailed to a stake, there is evidence of impalements, I have never seen any of being nailed to a single, vertical stake.
• 

  PSacramento

  Opps, double post.
• 

  reniaa

  hi psacramento

  The problem is that the 4 eyewitnesses to the event are being obstinately stubborn on which method used, and Jesus own words indicate a single stake method.

  Impalements were many and varied and different from century to century can you imagine the conversation.

  justus - "hey your Roman? I cannot find out what type of stauros our Lord Jesus died on? you know this word only translates to stake but not what type?"

  roman citizen - "well the most popular is this T-shaped cross here, we kill loads of people like that see that guy over there that is defacing that wall and drawing today's impalment thats the method i'm talking about oops one sec, HEY YOU THERE! stop doing that! it's public property!"

  This is a needle in a haystack situation with very little historical evidence beyond knowing tons of people died in numerous different roman impalements throughout the centuries and these could get inventive from impalement to impalement (wood and corpses rot). Also assumption that anything we do find is tied in with Jesus, when all it shows are these methods are common but nothing to do with Jesus specifically.

  This is why I emphasise original wording is what is important not just what Jesus died on although a board above Jesus's head would seem to rule out T-shaped method and Jesus's words towards the scriptures saying the snake was put up on the pole would seem powerfully indicative that a single stake was involved.

  and heres a thought.... Is the fact that the gospel writers didn't elaborate beyond stauros or xylon simply because they didn't need to because it was just a single stake he died on?

  Hi isaac

  I think JWs stick to biblical answers only and for me despite your disagreement I think Jesus's words are powerful on a single stake method.

  Reniaa