Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  isaacaustin

  Reniaa said:

  Colossians 1:15 KJV
  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

  Colossians 1:15 NASB
  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

  The evidence is unanimous I just waded through 112 references I found on firstborns in the bible. they all had to be part of the group they were called firstborn of. In most cases they were actual firstborns and with a couple they have been appointed firstborn but as I said they had to be part of the group there is absolutely no exception to this biblically.

  But pitchard is right

  You cannot just ignore the 'Born' in preference to the first.

  Jesus had to be part of creation to qualify to be firstborn of it and in this case It looks that it means both literally and in preeminance.

  My reply: Sounds like you are trying to make the claim that this is partitive. Even that is not an issue as you think. Jesus joined the ranks of creation upon his birth thru Mary. And he was the firstborn, or preeminant one- first in rank. Again though, nothing to do with a beginning or creation of Jesus.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa says:

  Luke 18:18-19 (New International Version)

  18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

  19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone

  My reply: This has been answered before. Jesus did not deny he was good. He was putting this man into a compromising position- he asked the man why he called him good. If he acknowledges Jesus as good he must acknowledge Jesus as God.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Psalm 89:27
  I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

  appointed firstborn of kings, he was a king and so part of the kingly group.

  Colossians 1:18
  And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

  firstborn of the dead he was literally firstborn of the dead to everlasting resurrection he also had to be of the group that died.

  Colossians 1:15 KJV
  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

  Colossians 1:15 NASB
  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

  My reply: These all show a preeminance of an individual a part of a group. In the Ps 89:27 'firstborn' obviously means preeminant....Jehovah said he would make David (already existing) his firstborn.

  The remaining verses show Jesus to be firstborn, or preeminant of a group. He joined creation when he was born to Mary. Really no rocket science there.
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  stronglogos

  THE TEACHING IN TITUS 2:13 THAT JESUS IS GOD AND SAVIOR IS CONSISTENT WITH OTHER SCRIPTURE VERSES. 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus, Ti 2:13 NWT

  11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” Is 43:11 NWT (God asserts: "I, even I, am the LORD [Yahweh], and apart from me there is no savior.") This verse indicates that 1. a claim to be Savior is a claim to deity, and 2. there is only one Savior -God. It is against this backdrop that the New Testament refers to Jesus as Savior.

  because there was born to YOU today a Savior, who is Christ [the] Lord, in David’s city. Lu 2:11 NWT The parallel truths that only God is the Savior Is 43:11 and that Jesus is the Savior SHOWS YOU THAT JESUS IS JEHOVAH WHY ARE YOU DENYING JEHOVAH WHY IS THE WT ORGANIZATION DENY JEHOVAH? I LOVE JEHOVAH AND HE IS MY SAVIOR= JESUS!
• 

  Mad Dawg

  John 1:3 says:

  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

  Did Jesus create Himself?

  Ren my dear, can you explain the difference between a triad and a trinity? It seems dishonest of you to draw a false correlation between the two. Frankly, the teachings of the WTS society are much more in line with Greco-Roman paganism, one mighty God and many lessor gods, than does the idea of the trinity. Why does the WTS promote a polytheistic paganism?

  What are your sources for your claims about Ceasar - I mean original, contemporary sources.

  BTW, the Hebrew mss you refer to are known, without question, to have been the work of a 14th Jewish fellow with an axe to grind.

  Thank you for your posts, they are indeed interesting.

  MD
• 

  stronglogos

  Pilchard: SAYS-

  Whatever the witnesses claimed, they were obviously clueless when it comes to the trinity debate. Anyone who has spent any time whatsoever discussing the trinity with people who are knowledgeable of the Bible would see that those witnesses were spring chickens and out of their depth. (stronglogos SAYS-That's just not true the guy who did most of the talking he define the trinity at the beginning of the conversation he did it well and the other guy had I believe he said 20 years experience.)

  Pilchard SAYS-The whole show was a farce. Jim controlled the debate from the get-go and steam-rolled them into whatever corner he chose. They clearly did not even understand half the questions that were being posed. Also they were too polite to press any of the advantages that they did have. (stronglogos SAYS-That's not true they were going question for question till they got to the point where HEADQUARTERS we have a problem there is a CONTRADICTION in are (NWT) THATS WHEN BIBLE JIM TOOK CONTROL OF THE DEBATE !CHECK MATE! THROW YOUR BIBLE AWAY AND BUY ONE THAT GETS JOHN 1 RIGHT THESE GUYS WERE TRAINED ENOUGH TO SEE THE CONTRADICTION!)

  Pilchard SAYS-Frankly I would be embarrassed to be seen publicly massaging my ego by inviting some very naive people over just to prove how clever I was. (stronglogos SAYS-FIRST OF ALL NAIVE PEOPLE? I WAS'NT BORN YESTERDAY PILCHARD! THEY WERE THERE TO TEACH US WHERE WE ARE WRONG IN BELIEVING THAT JESUS IS JEHOVAH THEY KNEW (EXCATLY) WHAT THEY WERE (DOING!) STOP TRYING TO BAIL THEM OUT! WERE TIRED OF THE LIES AND SEENING PEOPLE DECEVIED BY THIS ORGANIZATION WE WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THE TRUTH! WE CARE FOR THEM AND EVERYONE ELSE OUT THERE BEING DECIEVED BY THIS ORGANIZATION.)

  Pilchard SAYS-There was no debate because Jim was arguing against people who simply did not know the subject matter. (stronglogos SAYS-WOW WHAT A STAEMENT YOU JUST MADE I CANT BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT. I AM TO TRUST MY SPIRITUAL WELL BEING INTO THE HANDS OF A ORGANIZATION THAT CANNOT SEND REPERSENTIVES OUT CORRECTLY.

  Pilchard SAYS-If the roles were reversed and you had a knowledgeable JW debating a clueless Christendomite you would get the same slaughter in reverse only I rather think a JW would not be quite so egocentric as to try to gain public kudos from such an easy win. (stronglogos SAYS-WOW AGAIN! SO YOU WOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A CHRISTIAN WHO DOESNT UNDERSTAND IS BIBLE (AMAZING THAT YOU SAID THAT!) THESE GUYS KNEW EXCALTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING WHAT (WE BELIEVE) AND WHAT (THEY BELIEVE) THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE MEETING THERES A BIG DIFFERENCE! (THEN TAKING ADVANTAGE OF A BRAND NEW BELIEVER AS YOU JUST SAID.) This is pretty bad Pilchard.
• 

  Tatiana

  I'll watch all of these after homework.
• 

  MarkSutter

  stronglogos,

  the two witnesses you had on the video really weren't the brightess bulbs in the bunch, so I really don't think you can claim victory with those two. I was somewhat disappointed that you didn't choose better participants for your video. It made for a boring watch (and I did watch the whole thing). Bible thumping Jim was simply better prepared. Not that he proved a point in my opinion except to show those two boys they knew very little of their bible and how to use it. So when you say they knew what they were doing I can only reply with barely. I think there are more than a few which could have given Jim a better fight, if you can call it that.

  As far as trusting others with my spriritual well-being, are you suggesting I should trust either you or Jim with mine?

  take care

  mark
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Mark,

  Welcome aboard!

  Maybe you could answer this one please?

  Revelation 1 (New International Version)

  Prologue

  1 The revelation of Jesus Christ

  7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,
  and every eye will see him,
  even those who pierced him;
  and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

  8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

  12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

  17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

  Revelation 20 (New International Version)

  6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. John 4:13 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. Isaiah 9:6

  Revelation 21 (New International Version)

  12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

  16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

  20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
  Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. So who is the Alpha and the Omega? All the best, Stephen
• 

  stronglogos

  Pilchard SAYS-There was no debate because Jim was arguing against people who simply did not know the subject matter. (stronglogos SAYS-WOW WHAT A STAEMENT YOU JUST MADE I CANT BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT. I AM TO TRUST MY SPIRITUAL WELL BEING INTO THE HANDS OF A ORGANIZATION THAT CANNOT SEND REPERSENTIVES OUT CORRECTLY.

  Mark SAYS-As far as trusting others with my spriritual well-being, are you suggesting I should trust either you or Jim with mine? MARK YOU MISSED THE POINT (these as Pilchard SAYS-people who simply did not know the subject matter (HE IS RIGHT! AND HE IS WRONG!) THEY KNEW THE SUBJECT MATTER I WASN'T BORN YESTERDAY STOP TRYING TO BAIL THEM OUT THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO (DO) AND WHAT (WE BELIEVE as Christians) AND WHAT (THEY BELIEVE as Jehovah Witnesses ) AND AT THE SAME TIME I agree with Pilchard they dont know the subject matter and that's the point that you miss with this comment. This organization does it not claim to speak for Jehovah? Yes or No. these are 2 repersentives of Jehovah? Yes or No. Me or Jim could tell YOU what you must do to be saved! these guys could'nt! if I had 5 mins to live I be in big trouble with Jehovah! those 2 JW'S would not be able to lead me to Jehovah you take care too Mark-