Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...

by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Vinny

  Undisfellowshipped whines: " Let me start by saying that I am disappointed and upset when I read certain people's comments that it doesn't matter what we believe about the identity or nature of Jesus and His Father."

  **** Nonsense.

  You want to try to sell me on the fact that a sincere, dedicated bible believing worshiper of God and follower of Jesus couldn't possibly come to the conclusion that Jesus is NOT EQUAL to the Father based on these scriptures?

  While Jesus was on earth:

  John 14:28

  28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

  And After the thousand years when Jesus is in Heaven:

  1 Corinthians 15:26-28

  26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [1] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

  And many more like these.

  Same with Reniaa.

  There are MANY verses that support Jesus is more than what JW's make him out to be. BOTH SIDES have just as convincing arguments. There are literally hundreds of verses that support both sides of the argument. It's as if both sides become pharisaical in trying to prove ONLY THEY are right. The proper, healthier approach is to say, "I believe this" or , "I believe that"... and here's why. But for you to fight, bicker and quarrel ((( for years at a time ))) over the same old boring Trinity nonsense (while the other side is gonna get destroyed) is what gives all of this Christianity deal A BAD NAME. You folks are all embarrassing yourselves. Is worth reading only for a good laugh. Vinny
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Vinny,

  You are free to believe as you wish, but, if you take the New Testament seriously, those verses above show clearly that if you do not believe that Jesus is the One that He claimed to be, you will die in your sins (in other words, die without being forgiven).

  My post was more against the idea (not based on any Scripture I've ever seen) that it's not important what we believe about Jesus and God. The Bible does NOT say that anywhere. Period.

  If you do not believe that Jesus is the One that He claimed to be, you are going to die in your sins.

  That is what Jesus said at John 8:24. Those are not my words. Those are His.

  Are you saying that knowing the truth is not important, or are you claiming that it is impossible to know the truth?

  Why do you think it's a good idea to NOT know the truth?
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Vinny said:

  "BOTH SIDES have just as convincing arguments. There are literally hundreds of verses that support both sides of the argument."

  So, in other words, just because you personally have not taken the time to thoroughly research or use proper exegesis, we should all just abandon the idea that we could possibly know the truth about God?

  Have you actually examined closely the arguments of both sides?

  Where do you get the idea that there are "hundreds of verses" that support Unitarianism? I know of (at most) about 8 verses that Unitarians use (and even then they are not very convincing)
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Vinny said:

  "You want to try to sell me on the fact that a sincere, dedicated bible believing worshiper of God and follower of Jesus couldn't possibly come to the conclusion that Jesus is NOT EQUAL to the Father based on these scriptures?"

  But, you have misunderstood the Trinity Doctrine. The Trinity Doctrine INCLUDES those verses you quoted as part of their beliefs.

  Let me make it very clear:

  Trinitarians agree that The Father has a greater position than The Son (Jesus) does within the Nature of God. So there is absolutely no contradiction or problem for Trinitarians to believe wholeheartedly in John 14:28 and 1 Corinthians 15:26-28.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Vinny said:

  "It's as if both sides become pharisaical in trying to prove ONLY THEY are right. The proper, healthier approach is to say, "I believe this" or , "I believe that"... and here's why. But for you to fight, bicker and quarrel (((for years at a time))) over the same old boring Trinity nonsense (while the other side is gonna get destroyed) is what gives all of this Christianity deal A BAD NAME. You folks are all embarrassing yourselves."

  Well, only one side CAN be right. They can't both be right. Jesus can't BE God and NOT BE God. It's one way or the other. There is no neutral position there. Jesus Himself said "If you are not on My side, you are against Me."

  Who are you to judge what a "good name" or "bad name" for Christianity is, especially if you deny or ignore what the New Testament itself says?

  Who are you to say that we are "embarrassing ourselves" when you do not even take the time to find out what the New Testament says that Christians should do when it comes to knowing the truth about Jesus and God and having correct Doctrine?
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  Vinny

  Undisfellowshipped writes: "Well, only one side CAN be right. They can't both be right. Jesus can't BE God and NOT BE God."

  **** If a believer in and follower of Christianity has a slight misunderstanding as to what exact role The Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit actually has, then are you saying such an individual will lose out on life?

  Even (((IF))) they are doing everything they can to walk in Jesus' steps to the very best of their ability?

  What I am saying is that for those that believe Jesus is God's son, separate from God Himself, but believe he is subject to the Father and independent of Him; that such people will not be destroyed if the bible is true.

  Do you disagree?
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  reniaa

  yizuman your argument that the ability to sin implies a flaw is invalid and not back by scripture.

  adam was classed as perfect until he sinned but his perfection did not stop him sinning which it would by your reasoning.

  Why would satan even bother tempting Jesus if he thought Jesus incapable of sin? the whole point of Jesus coming to earth was not just he was perfect but that he could resist sin unlike adam and thus provide a sacrifice for us. If he was inapable of even having the ability to sin or not sin then his sacrifice is rendered meaningless.

  If the angels are as flawed as men where is the sacrifice for them? the bible makes it clear Jesus's sacrifice is for mankind alone, and only man dies from being in a sinful condition suffering the rebuke of God basically we await reinstatement by God (the angels inc satan are alive and live lifes with no death as is clear when satan is shown in eden, then talking to God about job, then tempting Jesus, then at armegeddon throughout thousands of years)

  That the angels are capable of sinning is there but you cannot say that means they are imperfect just that some chose to sin.

  Reniaa

  your premise is a personal one and not backed by scripture.
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  Vinny

  Undisfellowshipped writes: "Who are you to judge what a "good name" or "bad name" for Christianity is, especially if you deny or ignore what the New Testament itself says?"

  **** When Muslims fight/argue/bicker among Muslims, do find such conflicts appealing for the Muslim faith?

  When sincere, professed Christians fight/argue/bicker among themselves, do you think such conflicts are appealing to a non-Christian or a potential Christian?

  What do you think is happening on this thread?

  Undisfellowshipped then writes: "Who are you to say that we are "embarrassing ourselves" when you do not even take the time to find out what the New Testament says that Christians should do when it comes to knowing the truth about Jesus and God and having correct Doctrine?"

  **** My opinion is that so-called professed Christians arguing/fighting/bickering among so called professed Christians IS embarrasing to the religion of Christianity itself. If you don't like my opinion then too bad for you.

  I'll get my violin out for you.

  I have read the bible through many times and can tell you this: BOTH SIDES HAVE STRONG ARGUMENTS when it comes to the Trinity.

  So, if you believe the God of the bible will destroy the man or woman that serves Him through Christ, with a sincere and sacrificial spirit to the best of their ability and comprehension, yet is on the wrong side of the trinity issue itself, then I believe such a religious/belief system is not worth much at all.

  Sorry.

  Vinny
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  This is a response for Reniaa, Pilchard, and any other Jehovah's Witnesses or Unitarians (Non-Trinitarians) who may be reading this. First, I will lay out a very short (but strong) case for believing that the Bible teaches that Jesus is the One True God by Nature, along with The Father.

  Then (perhaps tomorrow) I will attempt to respond to every single point made by Reniaa and Pilchard in this thread.

  When we make claims about what the Bible says about the Nature of God, and whether or not Jesus has the Nature of God, and what that means, we need to define our terms. For example, when I read the posts of Reniaa and Pilchard, I still cannot figure out exactly what they mean when they say that Jesus is "a god" and what they mean when they say The Father is "The God." What exactly do you mean? What exactly is the difference between "The God" [Father] and "a god" [The Son] and where does the Bible actually say Jesus is "a god" (besides the highly-disputed John 1:1, which no scholar or expert that I know says it should be rendered "a god")?

  My Short Case for The Deity of Christ:

  The Book of Isaiah (as well as Exodus and Deuteronomy) clearly, unambiguously teach that there is Only One True God by Nature, and His Name is YHWH [Jehovah/Yahweh]:

  Isaiah 46:5, 9 (ESV): "To whom will you liken me and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be alike? ... for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

  Isaiah 44:6-8 (ESV): Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. Who is like me? ... And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

  Isaiah 45:5-6 (ESV): I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; ... there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

  Isaiah 45:21-24 (ESV): ... And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; ...

  Deuteronomy 32:39 (ESV): "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; ...

  Deuteronomy 6:13-15 (ESV): It is the LORD your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear. You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you--for the LORD your God in your midst is a jealous God--lest the anger of the LORD your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth.

  Exodus 20:3, 5 (ESV): "You shall have no other gods before me. ... You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, ...

  Exodus 34:14 (ESV): (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

  The New Testament teaches the same thing:

  Mark 12:29, 32 (ESV): Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. ... And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.

  Matthew 4:10 (ESV): Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"

  James 2:19 (ESV): You believe that God is one; you do well. ...

  Romans 3:30 (NIV): ... there is only one God ...

  But, when you come to the New Testament teachings about Christ, you find out that it says Jesus is God (John 20:28; 2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13; John 1:18), and that He has the same Nature as God (John 1:1; Colossians 2:9), that He has always existed with The Father (John 1:1-3), and that Jesus must be worshiped just as The Father is worshiped (John 5:23; Hebrews 1:6; Philippians 2:9-11; Revelation Chapter 5), and also that The Son is exactly like The Father (Hebrews 1:3).

  How does the New Testament's teachings about Jesus harmonize with those verses in Isaiah, Deuteronomy, and Exodus?
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Vinny,

  Thanks for your reply.

  You said:

  **** If a believer in and follower of Christianity has a slight misunderstanding as to what exact role The Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit actually has, then are you saying such an individual will lose out on life? Even (((IF))) they are doing everything they can to walk in Jesus' steps to the very best of their ability?

  As I said before, it is NOT a "slight misunderstanding" whether Jesus was God or not. If Barack Obama (or, heaven forbid, George W. Bush) got up on stage and declared that he was God Almighty in the flesh, but then others claimed that he was NOT God Almighty, would that be just a "slight" minor, insignificant difference of opinion about their identity?

  Jesus promised that IF you are truly, sincerely seeking the truth about God with your whole heart, then you WILL find the truth about Him. It's a guarantee. But some people don't put forth the effort to research and dig for the truth (for whatever reasons). They don't seek God with their whole hearts, and thus, they may not find the truth or be saved.

  You said:

  What I am saying is that for those that believe Jesus is God's son, separate from God Himself, but believe he is subject to the Father and independent of Him; that such people will not be destroyed if the bible is true. Do you disagree?

  According to the New Testament, Jesus has the Nature of God, He is One with The Father, He is the Creator who existed before creation began, He claimed to be The Great I AM [Yahweh], and He said you must honor Him just as you honor The Father. Then He even said that if you do not believe that He is the One He claimed to be, you are doomed.

  Those are His words, not mine.