by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible
JWs Never deny Jesus is Gods actual firstborn Son! in fact it is trinitarians that do deny this as Biblejim clearly shows! they say his son-ship is a postion not a truth from God!
my reply: The Bible does not show Jesus to be a firstborn (as in first created) son....not when you understand the terms firstborn and son as they mean to the Jews. His son-ship is an identity...son of God- showing his godship....son of man- showing his humanity...
WHICH GOD DO WE WORSHIP? Jehovah's witnesses worship Jehovah as God! My reply: No the Jehovah's Witnesses worship and kowtow to the Governing body. That is who they worship. trinitarians worship Jesus as God! My reply: True trinitarians will argue this point but when you have invented a whole unbiblical doctrine to allow you to worship the son instead of the Father and put a cross representing the son on all your altars I will stand by what I say. My reply: We worship the Son as we worship the Father. And the corss does not represent Jesus. It is simply a reminder of what he did for us. This has been explained to you before. How important is it that we worship the true God? Exodus 34:14 My reply: Agrred, and I do.Matthew 4:8-10 (New International Version)8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." 10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship YHWH your God, and serve him only.' [ a ] " My reply: Jesus did not deny worship for himself- he denied it to the devil.John 4:23 (New International Version)23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. My reply: Of course he later brings out how all are to honor him exactly as the Father....or Revelation 5 shows the entire heavenly host worshipping the Father and the Son together. Jesus owns words show us how the true worshipers will be recognised? Does he say will they worship Jesus the son? NO! they will worship the Father does he even say 'AND the son'? NO! Does he say God so trinitarians could say it included both? NO! How important is worshiping the true God? the bible made it a commandment and Jesus also gave his backing to that commandment. You and chalam think armageddon is a just a gentle change-over of governments have you read revelation 16? Revelation 16:1 (New International Version)Revelation 161 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."Revelation 16:16-21 (New International Version)16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. 17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible. this doesn not paint an easy picture it's heavily symbolic language but the dire warning of it shows it will be terrible for man who will 'curse god' because of it's terribleness. but if you want more comfirmation how about Jesus's own words.... Luke 17:26-37 (New International Version)26 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot's wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left." [ a ] 37 "Where, Lord?" they asked. Is Jesus painting a pretty picture here? OR is he showing it will be a flood type event? The Jehovah's witnesses did not put these scriptures in the bible but we paid heed to the warning and do not take the warning lightly? Do you? My reply: Yes, we take heed and stay awake. But we do not utter false prophecies from these verses, as the Wt has notoriously and repeatedly done. reniaa |
Reniia says:
1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.
this doesn not paint an easy picture it's heavily symbolic language but the dire warning of it shows it will be terrible for man who will 'curse god' because of it's terribleness.
but if you want more comfirmation how about Jesus's own words....
26 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot's wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left." [ a ]
37 "Where, Lord?" they asked.
He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.
Is Jesus painting a pretty picture here? OR is he showing it will be a flood type event?
My reply: No reniaa...Jesus is not painting a pretty picture here for those who do not know him. That is why you need to break free from the cultic blindness that does not allow you to know Jesus, but rather idolize man. For those who do not know Jesus, but serve man...they will be quite disappointed when they have to face Jesus at judgment day. The WT does nothing for you now and can do nothing for you then.
Vinny,
In terms of worshipping Jesus, perhaps the following scriptures might assist:
John 5:23 (NWT):
23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Philip 14:8 (NWT)
8 Philip said to him: “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
9 Jesus said to him: “Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip, you have not come to know me? He that has seen me has seen the Father [also]. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
I hope this helps.
JWs Never deny Jesus is Gods actual firstborn Son! in fact it is trinitarians that do deny this as Biblejim clearly shows! they say his son-ship is a postion not a truth from God!
I agree, I believe in the Trinity and I believe this verse is discussion totally. In fact, if you look in context you will see the folly of the WT doctrine
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is God, how simple could it be. The firstborn we are going to look at the context to understand if this is literal (physically firstborn or a spiritual, headship thing). Now I think of it the matter is settled right there and then, Adam is the firstborn. Jesus was not born until thousand of years later! Let us press on and check what Paul is saying. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Jesus created everything as any good bible says. Even the NWT admits its insertion of an additional word that is not found in the original greek text by the use of the brackets [other]. "All things were created by Him for Him". What?! See here.
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
So this say the same but is clearly God. I just checked and the NWT has "Jehovah" in v34.
So obviously Jesus and the Father are one as Jesus has been saying all along John 10:30 and He too is God.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. How could in a created being like an angel called Michael "all things hold together"?! He would have to be God Almighty which he isn't. He is just a ministering spirit to serve the saints Hebrews 1:14 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Once again, it is clear Paul is talking about the firstborn being the headship, not the literal oldest which the human Jesus clearly wasn't. "In everything he might have supremacy" sound clearly like God Almighty status to me. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, Here we go again, Jesus is God. 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Who can forgive sins? Only God and yes Jesus does that Matthew 9:6 via the covenant of His blood Matthew 26:28
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
We are cut off from God due to our sin and His holiness.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Jesus is THE way, THE truth and THE life John 14:6
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Faith without works is dead. See Jeff's current thread for an explanation The Power of Faith
All the best, Stephen
Oh boy... and you wonder why people don't like religion
Yeah I am not a fan :) I see the word only six times in the whole of my bible. Funny how "religious" people like JWs and legalists like to use the word a lot!
Legalism (theology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All the best,
Stephen
Ren my dear,
I am getting more confused than ever, please help me here.
To be honest I accept only the bible as authority on talking about things that are purely speculation if the bible doesn't say it.
Do you realize that you said here that the Bible is your only authority on things it doesn’t talk about?
throughout history a small numbers of earnest bible followers have kept believing
Please name these folks. Please provide source stating that Newton was a unitarian. Are you suggesting that Newton also held to the rest of WTS doctrine? Are you aware that Charles Russel was never baptized?
isaac polytheism is worshiping many gods
Ren, if I may, you are a bit off on your definition of polytheism.
Polytheism
Pol"y*the*ism\, n. [Poly- + Gr. ? cf. F. polyth['e]isme.] The doctrine of, or belief in, a plurality of gods.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
polytheism
The belief in more than one god. The ancient Greeks, for example, were polytheists; their gods included Apollo , Athena , Dionysus , and Zeus . (Compare monotheism .)
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
The thing here is not how many gods a person worships, but how many he believes exists. Greek and Roman pagans believed that many gods existed but typically they chose one god and worshipped that one exclusively – same as JW’s claim to do now. By the standard of the actual definition of the word, JW’s are polytheists. You can call a tail a leg, but that don’t make it so.
the biggest flaw is the bible never says 3 equals one, only men do.
The Bible never states the following, only men do:
Ø Paradise earth
Ø ONLY 144K are going to Heaven
Ø Theocratic organization
Ø Governing Body
Ø Jerusalem fell 607 years before the common era
Ø Pioneers
The above are all examples of where the WTS invented words or “…twist MAN-MADE rhetoric to try and fit around ...” their own ideas.
NOWHERE ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY 3 in ONE!
I’d love for you to state with a straight face that the WTS only uses words and phrases found in the Bible.
Ren, thank you for your input. It is interesting, but I am getting more confused from what you are saying. Please help clarify this.
MD
isaac polytheism is worshiping many gods what you describe is there already but 3 never equals one the biggest flaw is the bible never says 3 equals one, only men do.
My reply: polytheism is the belief in multiple gods...the trinity subscribes to only one god...not 3 (as has been explained to you multiple times). The 3 persons who operate as this one God do not make 3 gods because they operate as one spiritual flesh in perfect unity. If they operated independently of each other then, yes, you would have a polytheistic situation. The Son and Holy Spirit operate in perfect submission and unity with the decision maker- the Father. This is the trinity or tri-unity.
MAN THESE POSTS ARE LONG LOL
this is how I see the trinity
If I was created in god's image I see myself as
Mind Body Spirit
all being one.
My body can do nothing without the mind
My spirit is nothing without the mind or the body to express it
My mind expresses itself with my body and spirit
I see the GOD of this perfect expression endless in the creative process - REALITY
Jesus was subordinate (see above)
the three are separate (see above)
the three are one (see above)
I see JESUS as the demonstration of the way to GOD with the SPIRIT of integrity.
"It was He who called for compassion, not stoning, as a communal response to sexual indescretion. It was He who consistently challenged the religion leadership of his day to be less dogmatic, less self-righteous, more generous, more integrous, and more inclusive in the love and consideration of others."
"Jesus embodied God's will for humanity - humility, authenticity, responsibility, and loving service to the WHOLE, and on behalf of future generations. His ways of thinking, acting, loving, and resisting evil reveal OUR way... [to God]"
"if Christ can be seen as the embodiement of Divine Integrity, the incarnation of "The Only Way to Wholeness" then individuals and organizations that use their power to promote fear, hatred, conformity, dishonesty, control, and irresponsibility can be said to be doing the work of the AntiChrist."
Excerpts from "Thank God for Evolution"
How do you explain an abstract concept to a child?
wp
