Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again? (page 12)

Journey-on: are you okay with the murder of this doctor or are you not? It's a simple queston, so stop dodging it and answer?

Bottom line is that in this country, abortion is not ILLEGAL. It's the law. The doctor was providing a service legally to citizens of this country or they wouldn't have gone to him. Another doctor gives a criminal a lethal injection to kill him for his crimes. Another doctor makes the decision to abort multiple fetuses to save the mother and maybe the other fetus. Killing none of these people is murder nor is it against the law. sammieswife.

Nobody, as far as I can tell, is rationalizing a murder.

Nor have you outright condemned it for what it is- murder. At best you have denounced it while offering the disclaimer that, while you don't agree with the method, you understand why he felt the need to do it. To say this isn't rationalizing is splitting hairs. Everyone who murders feels justified in doing so, whatever their motive is. They are no more or less justified in taking a human life.

There you go again, keyser. Some issues are not black and white. But to answer your "simple" question: Of course, I don't condone murder. (I guess the rest of what I said went in one ear and out the other....sigh.)

I haven't had to make such a difficult decision regarding a pregnancy - I'm thankful for that. I wouldn't want the rest of the world involved however, in my personal and medical decisions when they are legal. That is private. Abortion is not going away so all the energy might be better spent on education and access to medical care for all women and men. I am not about to judge any person who MUST make that decision because I don't believe for a second that it's made in great haste. Here is one woman's story - sammieswife.

You know, Mr. Baker, when I had my late term abortion (just at the edge of the third trimester), I had about a 60% chance of death. I also had a 80% of strokes and seizure with coma and/or death, 100% chance of kidney failure, and 90% chance of liver failure. If we’d waited much longer, those numbers would have risen.

At what point would you tell my doctors it was okay to intervene and save my life? Where do you draw the line? Why do you think anyone other than my doctors and I have the right to decide WHEN the right moment is? After all, organ failure and coma wouldn’t KILL me. I’d still be alive.

How about my friend Julia, whose son had a condition that was not only incompatible with life, but was causing the baby tremendous agony and pain — which was visible on ultrasound? Should she have just gone to term, knowing the whole time that the movement she felt in her womb was her much loved and wanted son writhing in pain? Or should she have been allowed to have the procedure that Dr. Tiller invente, thus ending his pain with a simple injection to his heart?

Do you actually think you have any idea what you are talking about? Because you really don’t. Trust me. I’ve been there.

This is a message from a former abortion doctor on another site (David) explaining his point of view. sammieswife.

I’m about to post this on my blog:

I am a former abortion provider. I did not know Dr. Tiller personally but only heard wonderful things about his practice and skill. As one of the diminishing number of physicians who performed second trimester abortions, I can state unequivocally that it is never a procedure that is approached in a cavalier fashion. Not every gynecologist can perform it, even if trained appropriately. The sad thing is that we’ve done a really bad job at training the next generation of providers. I taught many residents, but of those, many will not provide abortion services for a variety of reasons. Part of why this is is that abortion has been marginalized. People don’t want to talk about it. My colleagues for the most part didn’t want to deal with it. Some couldn’t say the “a-word,” substituting euphemisms like VIP (voluntary interruption of pregnancy). Abortion is a very common procedure. It is a necessary procedure. But it will be an extinct, forgotten procedure if clinicians are not trained to do it safely and compassionately. We need to get it back into the hospitals so that it is again part of routine gyn practice. Abortion training must be made more widely available within residency training programs. It’s idiotic that many ob/gyn residency programs do not offer in-house abortion services, but must send “interested” residents to outside clinics, often on their own time during weekends.

When I was in practice, I did a lot of procedures in ob/gyn. Including abortion. Some of my most grateful patients were those for whom I performed an abortion. I never performed any abortion without being absolutely certain that the patient desired it and that it was her own decision. That’s what “choice” is about, after all. My abortion patients didn’t wake up that morning and decide “What the hell, I think I’ll have an abortion.” This was a very, very difficult decision for any woman to make. People who have not walked in their shoes should not be making judgments or regulations about this most private and personal of medical decisions.

All of us who either performed or continue to perform abortions need to finally stand up, be counted, and say “enough.” Abortion providers have this terrible stereotype of being slimy, scumbags in the margins of the medical profession. We’re not. We’re academics. We’re honorable. Most of us have delivered babies. All of us provide or provided services that are challenging and that many physicians either can’t or simply won’t provide. Rather than honor abortion providers, society (including many physicians) treats them like criminals. This must change. While I recognize the potential danger in coming out as an abortion provider, there is strength in numbers. And just as the Gay community came out and took steps to remove the stigma of being gay, abortion providers should stand up, be proud, and demonstrate that we’re here to stay. Only when abortion is de-marginalized can we start addressing the onerous restrictions on the provision of abortion services and also combat the insidious demonizing of abortion providers. Such demonizing was absolutely behind the assassination of Dr. Tiller yesterday.

david

1 Jun 09 at 8:00 pm

Burn as far as I've seen, no one has started a thread on Drew Peterson or the guy who killed his family in a hotel room, or a dozen other tragedies that have happened in the last couple of weeks. There is a difference here.

Oddly enough, I notice that the guy you mention is being charged with acts of terrorism. Is the doc shooter? He certainly should be, this is one of many many acts of violence and murder by anti abortion activists. This is not an isolated incident.

sammieleeswife: You are completely wrapped up in the emotion of the situation. About 80% of what you say I agree with but you aren't debating anything. You are just effusing emotion that I guess you feel makes your position more correct. Pathos is the weakest form of argumentation and I am looking for a little more than that to provoke my intellect.

keyser: You are making this too black and white. Because someone understands and even symphathizes with a killers logic is far from condoning it. I understand Bin Laden's logic, he hates the U.S. He feels the U.S. is the reason his people are oppressed. He wants to kill Americans. 9/11 makes sense to me, doesn't mean I condone it for one second. I'd be the first one to kick ol' Bin Laden's ass given the chance. You are trying to paint anyone who is anti-abortion into the "look he wanted the doctor to get shot!" camp. You are looking for one little snippet to take out of context and say "LOOK I TOLD YOU... HE'S A CRAZY HOMICIDAL PRO-LIFER!" You are doing the same thing guys like Bill Oreilly and Rush Limbaugh do on the other side of the political spectrum. That is not intellectual honesty, which is all I am asking for from the posters.

CNN, FOXNEWS, TALK RADIO and other forms of media are all biased. You can get valuable information from them but you have to process it and think for yourself. They are owned by corporations who must make profit. They fragment the population and pander to their audience to sell more advertising space. Let's come together and discuss things honestly and intellectually, puleeeeeeze!

Of course, I don't condone murder. (I guess the rest of what I said went in one ear and out the other....sigh.)

I guess it did. I only paid attention to what was actually relevant to the thread. It wasn't about aborted fetuses, it was about one murdered doctor. The reason he was murdered may matter to you, but it doesn't to me.

sammieleeswife: You are completely wrapped up in the emotion of the situation. About 80% of what you say I agree with but you aren't debating anything.

lol...you are so wrapped up in your analysis..I don't intend to debate because the issue is non debatable. My stance is and always has been for choice - that is not debatable for me. Provoking your intelligence isn't my job nor my desire..nor is it my intent to prove or disprove your level of intelligence by such a debate. I am using personal stories to show the emotion that pushes forward on both sides of the argument and to once again show that the issue is not, will never be and cannot be, as concise, as black and white as you would like it to be. That doesn't wrap me in the personal side of it - it simply shows that I'm capable of hearing from all those involved and choose to try and counterbalance one with the other. That's life. That's the human species with all it's complexities.

I don't get wrapped up in it all - I'm certain of my stance on the issue. It does not waver. There is nothing that can be said that I haven't heard before. Hypocrisy breeds distrust and when the pro-life groups continue to picket and scream, to threaten patients going in and out of clinics, to push abstinence instead of education and birth control and to ultimately bomb or murder doctors, nurses and any other person involved in a legal service in this country, it simply showcases the hypocrisy. Little attempt to work together means nothing will ever get resolved. sammieswife.

Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?

keyser soze

sammielee24

keyser soze

journey-on

sammielee24

sammielee24

beksbks

Brocephus

keyser soze

sammielee24

Share this