Cheesus
Invisible Things of Him... are Clearly Seen, Being Understood by the Things That are Made
by Perry 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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hamsterbait
I cant see Jesus or a cross in that first Big Photo.
It looks like an anus with squamous cancer.
I wonder what God is telling me??
HB
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hamsterbait
Not having seen a universe come out of nothing, does not prove the God Thing.
Genesis says God formed the animals out of the dust of the ground.
Has anybody seen dust turning into an animal?
I saw a car license plate today outside my house. What is the likelihood of exactly
those letters and numbers being there at that moment? God must have done it.
This thread is getting boring.
HB
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drwtsn32
Do you have any knowledge of this happening? Of course you do not. Do you have any examples of something from nothing appearing in nature? Of course you do not. Do you know of evidence in man's recorded history when something was produced from nothing? Of course not. Would something from nothing break any scientific rules that physics is aware of. Of course. Is there any reasonable ground for assuming this whatsoever? No, it is quite beyond reason.
Let me get this straight. You can't imagine how a universe could come from nothing, and think it is more reasonable to believe in a being that did not have a beginning (like nothing else; violates science), is omnipotent (like nothing else; violates science), is outside the universe and therefore not bound to its laws (like nothing else; violates science), for which there is no direct, objective evidence.
Hmm....
BTW, who says the universe came from nothing? It is quite possible that the energy comprising the universe has always existed. How could that always exist? Why is there not just nothingness? Who knows. But lack of knowledge or evidence for those questions is not in itself evidence for the "god did it" conclusion.
What it boils down to is there was probably some original "something" that was not caused and has always existed. Otherwise we'd have an infinite causality problem on our hands. Is it more reasonable to think this something is a basic fundamental force or energy? Or that this something is an amazing, omnipotent, omnipresent, intelligent being that was sitting around for an indefinite amount of time and then just decided to create the universe?
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Perry
Whoa, not so fast everyone. I have never used the word "proof" in this thread, so please don't attribute this to my position, although I possess proof.
Let's review that superstition definition again:
a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
Observe that proof is not needed to disqualify a belief as a superstitution, only reasons or supporting knowledge are needed. Something from something is observable and verifiable, (water into ice for example) and so matter from God does have basis in reason (experience) and knowledge as we have all experienced substances change under specific conditions.
Sadly, the position of something from nothing has no such basis in knowledge. And, since no one has ever experienced such a phenomnon, it has no basis in reason either.
This is why many marvel at the faith required of atheists. I wish I had one tenth of that level of faith in God.
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drwtsn32
Sadly, the position of something from nothing has no such basis in knowledge. And, since no one has ever experienced such a phenomnon, it has no basis in reason either.
Don't you see it? You have that same position about god. Unless you believe god was the creation of something else... (in which case you can apply this to whatever created god.)
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Perry
It is quite possible that the energy comprising the universe has always existed.
Dwrtsn,
That is an admirable attempt to escape the superstitution dilemma. However, I must remind you that most scientists tell us that the universe had a beginning. The fact that all things seem to decay doesn't fit your proposition either. I don't think you have quite made it out ot the superstitution definition.
Im just curious, if you are willing to believe (contrary to known evidence) that the universe has always existed; why would you feel so secure in blaspheming God?
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Perry
Don't you see it? You have that same position about god.
Dwrtsn,
You lost me here. Can you please spell out your logic here for me?
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drwtsn32
You're not following me...
I believe the big bang happened ~14M years ago. I never said I didn't. What I said is perhaps what comprises the universe (energy) has always existed. Remember, before the big bang all matter and energy was compressed into a singularity. In other words the energy existed before the big bang. For all we know that energy has always existed.
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drwtsn32
You lost me here. Can you please spell out your logic here for me?
You state that something cannot come from nothing. You point to the example that all known things come from somewhere, and that therefore the only logical place for the universe to have come from is god.
But you don't even consider that now you have a "god" that did not come from somewhere. You don't even realize that your "solution" to the logic dilemma produces the very same dilemma; it solves nothing and actually makes the problem worse by adding another complex element into the picture.