jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    I have to say this. If it gets me banned, so bet it. My objection to this thread is as follows:

    This is a forum for ex-JWs and current JWs who are looking for support in their decision to leave the WTS. It is an oasis for those of us who have been beaten, tortured, raped, and had our lives and families destroyed by the WTS.

    JWD is NOT a place for active JWs like Reniaa to come on here and try to convert us, giving us the same old WTS crap that we have all been exposed to and rejected. Reniaa doesn't want to have a "discussion" with us, she is "witnessing!" She's counting her time! Ooh, she spent a whole hour looking up scriptures "on her own" from the back of her NWT! What a scholar.

    She is disturbing the peace here.

    She is pretending to be something she's not to have access to us to further spread the WTS poison.

    She is trying to take our oasis away from us, when we have so little time left together.

    When I log on to JWD, I don't want to feel like I'm in a KH.

    I resent what she's doing. I resent her presence here. I resent her.

    Becky/Reniaa, go away. You are fooling no one.

    StAnn

    (Outlaw, where are you when I need you?)

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    For your peace of mind, StAnn, it's best just to ignore her. Reniaa is fooling no one here.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Renaia,

    you are missing the main points that everyone is making and are misinterpreting the scriptures because you do not read them in their entirety, but rather pull out only one verse.

    Jesus gave up his divinity, came to earth in the flesh and thus was in lower position to the father. That is why he could say "the father is greater than I". Remember he was on earth then in human form. This is something Jesus willingly did, gave up the glory (which means divinity if you research this word), that he had from the beginning of time with the father and came to earth in a slave's form, made a little lower than the angels. Upon his ascension he took back his glory, i.e. divinity that he had prior to coming to earth.

    I know these things are hard for you to see because you have WT blinders on. They changed all the texts that clearly show Jesus is God. For instance John 1:1, how can they choose to accept that it says Jesus was God and add an "a" in this text, when for thousands of years it was accepted by all the bible scholars as being written as it where? Also, if the Apostle John wanted this text to read Jesus was "a" god, wouldn't he have written it that way?

    The WT doesn't comprehend the fact that by making Jesus "a' god, he must be a false God. Because the OT states there is only one true God.

    Please go back and look up the scriptures I quoted in their entirety in a bible other than the NWT. Or maybe you are afraid to learn what the real truth is?

    I think mrs. jones is correct here, we are beating a dead horse. Renaia is only interested in the WT interpretation of the bible.

    Lilly

  • StAnn
    StAnn
    For your peace of mind, StAnn, it's best just to ignore her. Reniaa is fooling no one here.

    Mrs. Jones, You're right, you're right, I know you're right. Must be my time of the month! Thanks for calming me down! StAnn

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    hi stAnn for you to view

    In case anyone is wondering about our registration policy:
    I don't intend to turn people away who want to register and post or make ultra-strict registration procedures because I honestly don't think that they work. If I were to ask for names of congregations or presiding overseers then I have no real way of checking if they are correct. Asking for words out of current literature (such as KMs) won't work either because people can get hold of this quite easily and would be a bit of a pain to administer. I think it also gives a bad witness in that it makes us look like we're a "paranoid cult who see enemies at every turn".
    This doesn't mean of course that I will allow posts of an obvious apostate nature or those that are abusive. The forum software is not completely finished yet but I am putting in place features for monitoring individuals posts if they are suspected of trying to cause trouble and warning or barring them if neccessary (although given the ease of getting a new identity on the Internet this is really a last resort).
    I hope the board gets busy enough so that I need some help moderating it but again, there is no way for me to confirm anyone's good standing or not unless I know them personally. I will just have to see who makes regular and reasonable contributions to decide who would be most suitable (and I don't want it to end up where the moderators have to be moderated).
    There are subjects that I believe should and need to be discussed which some would call controversial. I don't intend to prevent these as long as the discussions are constructive. Please be patient with those you don't agree with and don't be too quick to judge or to take offence.
    If anyone has any comments or concerns, please let me know. Your input will help to turn this forum into the one you want it to be.

    - Simon

    Edited by - Simon on 25 March 2000 20:19:29

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/56/1.ashx

    Originally this was a JW discussion group although things changed fairly fast but it still from what people have told had people from both camps both JW's and EX-Jws fiercely debating topics from one end of the known universe to another, anyone remember thirdwitness?

    Now StAnn you would have me kicked out for being pro-JW so wanting to make this forum come full-circle to become what it once said it never would be?

    Well you have a right to your opinion and so do I, but here lets do what mrsjones recommends and ignore each other!

    you don't need to write on any discussion threads if you don't like the topic.

    Reniaa

  • only me
    only me

    Reniaa are you counting your time when you're here? Hmmmm??

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    you are missing the main points that everyone is making and are misinterpreting the scriptures because you do not read them in their entirety, but rather pull out only one verse.

    Jesus gave up his divinity, came to earth in the flesh and thus was in lower position to the father. That is why he could say "the father is greater than I". Remember he was on earth then in human form. This is something Jesus willingly did, gave up the glory (which means divinity if you research this word), that he had from the beginning of time with the father and came to earth in a slave's form, made a little lower than the angels. Upon his ascension he took back his glory, i.e. divinity that he had prior to coming to earth.

    hi lilylil

    Actually I put as quite a few scriptures in my points I even in one of my posts recommended people to read theg whole prayer of jesus a lot of the time the issue is over one word in the scripture as in jesus saying 'the father is greater than I' and your point is basically while jesus was on earth he wasn't God? in your words gave up his divinity. but he then in your words "Upon his ascension he took back his glory, i.e. divinity that he had prior to coming to earth. " so then was equal to God again but then how come scriptures written on him after this still put him in subjection to God? (note i'm using large portions of scriptures not just a few words)

    1 cor 11: 3-5

    3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.

    revelation 3: 7-13

    7 "To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
    These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    renaia,

    Nope, you missed the substance of my posts again and again. Yes you use scriptures but you do not understand any of the scriptures you are using. Therefore, I am still not getting any direct answers about the points I raised.

    Having a scriptural discussion means you have to actually address the points that people bring out, using the bible. But what you are doing is jumping onto another text you think proves your point without addressing the specific texts and points that others bring out. And you are only spouting WT rhetoric.

    Let me break down my Q's for you; here goes;

    1. The jews tried to stone Jesus because he said he was "God's Son", they said he was making himself equal to God. Why did they say Jesus was making himself equal to God, when he clearly said he was the Son of God, and you claim that makes him lower than the father?

    In other words, in WHAT WAY did the Jews feel Jesus was making himself equal to God?

    2. John 1:1, clearly states that "in the beginning" Jesus was "with" God and "was" God. My Q's regarding this verse are these;

    a. if Jesus is "a" god like the WT states and not the GOD, doesn't that mean he is a false god as the bible states there is only one true God?

    b. John 1:1 states "in the beginning" the Word, (Jesus) was with God........"in the beginning means literally before ANYTHING including space and time existed. Since only God exists outside the confines of space and time, how could Jesus have been with him "in the beginning" if he was anything less than God?

    b. What gives the WT the right to add an 'a' into John 1:1, when virtually every bible scholor over thousands of years agreed that John 1:1 was written correctly? And if fact, the Apostle John under inspiration of Holy Spirit said In the beginning, Jesus WAS God?

    3. In Jesus prayer in John, he tells the father "Glorify me along side you, with the glory I HAD before the world begun". Here are my Q's about this verse;

    a. what does the word "glory" mean in this text?

    If you are stumped, go back to my posts and you will find the answers to these Q's. Lilly

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    reniaa,

    From your earlier reply to my post on this thread:

    Aren't we basically deciding what we ourselves think jesus is! when jesus himself did not seek to be God and as he did in this scripture pointed it out to others?

    Indeed, we are.

    That

    is the beauty of Christianity- the search for truth.

    "Keep on asking, and it will be given you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you"

    (Matthew 7:7).

    "I run in the path of your commands, for you have set my heart free"

    (Psalm 119:32).

    "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."

    (Galatians 5:13)

    Not

    the acceptance that whatever we currently believe is the whole truth, but the continued research, the questioning, the striving for truth.

    "They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity---for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him"

    (2 Peter 2:19).

    As I stated previously, and many others have stated likewise- you, nor I, nor any other human can prove, using the scriptures, that Jesus Christ is YHWH, that he is part of a trinity, etc. Christ's nature, however, can be proven to be divine, as the son of God, in agreement and full unity with the Father, unable to do anything that is not the Father's will.

    And I repeat- the very definition of "the trinity" you are taught as a JW is erroneous- what they teach as the definition is the official Catholic teaching, not the definition that equates to the beliefs of many other denominations, incuding certain Baptists, Pentecostals, etc. You will also find that individuals within these denominations may disagree with all or part of the trinity doctrine as they understand it, which is all well and good, in Christian freedom. Something you no doubt are unaccustomed to as a JW. Now, let's revisit your above reply once more:

    Aren't we basically deciding what we ourselves think jesus is!

    Isn't that exactly what Russell, Rutherford, et all have done? But here's the rub- you and the other JWs have swallowed whatever you are taught by WTBTS HQ as "new light". Of course JWs are not alone in following their "leaders".

    The key to truly being Christian is this- know your Leader- Christ. Not some man or men in NYC, Rome, or wherever. Do not be in fear of questioning the WTBTS, they are mere men. "Stop being afraid of those who kill the body but can't kill the soul. Instead, be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell", as Christ said in Matthew 10:28.

    "There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love

    " (1 John 4:18)

    "And the light is shining in the darkness, but the darkness has not overpowered it"

    (John 1:5)

    Now, I will repeat myself yet again- you can spend the rest of your life trying to come to an answer on your Original Post, however, you will not find a definitive answer. You, however, may come to the realization, as I have, that others who read the scriptures will disagree with you for sound scriptural reasons, and that, much, much more importantly, having an absolute right/wrong answer on your Original Post is not necessary for salvation.

    BA- My advice is to spend more time on the essentials, not the debatables. You can not, nor should it be your objective, to "win" this discussion/argument, as it is currently not that clear.

    PS- "In necessariis unitas, In dubiis libertas, In omnibus autem caritas." (In essentials unity, In doubtful things liberty, But in all things love) - Augustine

    PPS- If you count your time on here, please do not respond to this. If you respond, It means you don't count your time on here.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    (((StAnn)))..Mrs.Jones is right,Reniaa fools no one..She is misleading,misdirecting,will lie,ignores questions and ignores complete sentences written in the bible..LOL!!.........As long as Reniaa does`nt break forum rules..She`s free to continue to make a complete ass of herself on this board..LOL!!............I enjoyed your first post on this thread..You made your beliefs very clear and understandable..It`s a shame Reniaa dismissed them..She`s not interested in anyone`s belief`s..She`s here to preach..Why else would she have dismissed you,rather than debate you?............Reniaa starts threads to Preach..And..Reniaa never lets the Bible,get in the way of her beliefs!!..LOL!!....................... Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW

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