It is not wrong for one to disagree from another in belief. However, it is truly pathetic to make a strong assertion and use this as a basis to claim you are the true org and than simply run when refuted. I spoke up that you were correct on 1 Jh 5:7 Reniaa. Why do you dodge and run when presented with info outside of the WT box?
jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.
by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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reniaa
hi isaac austin
I was just reviewing your rebuttal of my scriptures, btw thankyou for your well thought out replies.
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' [ d ] "
20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
why would jesus pick up the mans words if he actually was God?
Jesus did NOT say he was not good. He simply asked a question...putting this man in a position of recognizing he was God.
The man coming to jesus is just a rich man who comes along not an appostle and jesus rebukes him for calling him Good, then saying no one is Good except God ALONE emphasies on the alone singular, while your interpretaion has merit, given the setting that he is talking to a random jew on a different subject this was just a pick up rebuke at the start, and then the alone on God I would be dubious of how you interpretate it to mean, the situation is such that the man will have the obvious meaning which is jesus emphasising only God is Good not jesus.
you then use hebrews scripture
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
you talk on my two witness text saying they are equal but isn't that contradictory after just looking at a scripture were jesus says "the father is greater than I"
The point in the scripture john 10: 31-37 is jesus emphasised he was God's son not letting them calling him God stand unchallenged.
but you added some intersting ideas heres another scripture for thought on Jesus or 'son of man'
Do we accept jesus is the 'son of man'?
Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (jesus and spirit are equal why can we be forgiven sinning against jesus but not the spirit?)- Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth - Matthew 13:41
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
Matthew 13:40-42 (in Context) Matthew 13 (Whole Chapter) - Matthew 16:13
[ Peter's Confession of Christ ] When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" - Matthew 16:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)
in view of these what do you think regarding the next scripture.....daniel 7: 13-14
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
This is talking of the son of man being led into the presence of the ancient of days, So here is jesus going to meet God and God gives him authority, this brings up many points firstly jesus is seen as a fully separate entity and in subjection to god as well as God being the one to give him power and glory etc
- Matthew 12:40
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Slappy
For the portion in Mark 10 that you keep harping on. Make an honest attempt to interpret it for yourself and not just take some WT rhetoric as your understanding; there are shaky foundations, and then there are shaky foundations. Yours would be the later.
This 'random' Jew as you classify him, greeted Jesus without really thinking much of what he said. He said "Good Teacher..." without comprehending that Jesus was God. By using the word "Teacher", the rich man acknowledged Jesus as a great prophet, but nothing more. Jesus recognized this and called the rich man out on it. He wasn't correcting the statement about Him being "Good", He was correcting the the rich man's belief that He was just a great prophet/teacher. Jesus is so much more. So Jesus was asking him why, if he viewed Jesus only as a prophet, he used the term "Good" in relation to such. For none is Good save God, so the rich man must either view Jesus as only a mere prophet and not attach "Good" to Him, or view Him as He really is, God manifest in the flesh. However, if the rich man disassociated the term "Good" and viewed Jesus only as a prophet, then the question that he was asking (How to attain eternal life.) was not really a question that can be asked of a mere prophet. For only God can give us the knowledge of how to attain eternal life.
slappy
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Slappy
you then use hebrews scripture
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
Just noticed what you said here.
First off, I suggest you look to the original language and determine what is really meant by the term that has been translated as 'made'.
Secondly, Jesus claims to be the Son of God. Can you deny that your parents 'made' you? However, as a child of theirs, they also 'begot' you. This, I think, is the sense of the english word 'made' as it is used in this instance. Get a concordance and determine for youself.
Thirdly, further on in that same portion, the author uses the word 'inheritance'. The angles don't inherit anything; they are only creations and can become nothing more. Christ was begotten (John 3:16) of God, and as such is THE SON OF GOD. Therefore, He has INHERITED a more excellent name. We can also inherit from God even though we are only creations. However, unlike the angels, we have the possiblity of believing in Christ and become like Him. For when we believe on Him, we are adopted into the FAMILY OF GOD. This would NOT be possible if Christ was not God. For why would belief on Christ enable the Spirit of God to dwell within in each believer? Belief in God allows Him to dwell within each of His children. However, we are told to believe on Christ since He is the physical representation of God Himself, and is the proof given to us of God's existence and great love toward us.
slappy
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snowbird
Reniaa, I beseech you to look further into the designation "Ancient of Days."
Did you know that some Bible scholars teach this was the Son, and link Daniel 7 with Matthew 25 and Revelation 1 and 13?
I didn't either - until I took off the WT glasses and searched for myself.
There is so much in the Bible that pokes holes in WT doctrine.
Sylvia
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reniaa
hi lovelylil,
its half term here so not much time outside of being mumified lol to answer points but i will address yours
You jesus clarified the point by saying 'I and the father are one' thus solidifying their equality but in other scriptures jesus says 'The father is greater than I' this is a contradiction and even if you say greater is only a position, but also look at this scripture john 17:11
11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.
if jesus saying he is one with god is some sort of reference to him being God then this scripture means we are all God because he is asking God for those that follow him to be one with God too! but if we take we are one to mean 'one' in purpose and agreement then this scripture makes sense.
I recommend all to read the whole of jesus's prayer to God here it is not the prayer between equals but of a humble loving son to his father who also loves us so much he'll give his life for us.
Never does jesus consider himself equal to God and here is a favourite Jw scripture which is still valid because it emphasises that jesus can't be god because he does not have the knowledge that god has.
36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, [f] but only the Father.
The humbleness of jesus is another reason I reject him trying to point out to the rich man he is God that is not a humble man speaking, it just doesn't sit well with who I know jesus to be...in fact for jesus to be all those would have him be on here for the scriptures to fit, he'd have to be playing a misleading lying game, gets irritated a lot, not particularily humble and making sure everyone knows he considers himself equal to God. Now if you applied that personality to Satan I'd agree but never to jesus
You talk of jesus asking god to Glorify him but why would he need that if he is equal to God? only if God is greater can he give Glory to jesus, again this emphasises that jesus has all he has because it is given by God, he is also the firstborn so he will have come before all things just not before god himself.
YO]ou also say the scriptures give a triune feel! No they do not! a few scriptures are manipulated to suggest jesus is God but the holy spirit never comes into them, the favourite of Godhead scriptures to be used 'The father and I are one' doesn't mention the holy spirit at all, So in fact any triun-ness to the bible is post-bible placed there by people telling you it should be there but in fact if we look at the bible with no preconceptions the trinity doesn't get a look in.
Unless you add the fake scripture at 1 John 5:7 which for me really is the Death-blow for believing Jesus is God because why would men put it in? and more importanatly why didn't God put it in.
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reniaa
you then use hebrews scripture
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.
Just noticed what you said here.
First off, I suggest you look to the original language and determine what is really meant by the term that has been translated as 'made'.
Secondly, Jesus claims to be the Son of God. Can you deny that your parents 'made' you? However, as a child of theirs, they also 'begot' you. This, I think, is the sense of the english word 'made' as it is used in this instance. Get a concordance and determine for youself.
Thirdly, further on in that same portion, the author uses the word 'inheritance'. The angles don't inherit anything; they are only creations and can become nothing more. Christ was begotten (John 3:16) of God, and as such is THE SON OF GOD. Therefore, He has INHERITED a more excellent name. We can also inherit from God even though we are only creations. However, unlike the angels, we have the possiblity of believing in Christ and become like Him. For when we believe on Him, we are adopted into the FAMILY OF GOD. This would NOT be possible if Christ was not God. For why would belief on Christ enable the Spirit of God to dwell within in each believer? Belief in God allows Him to dwell within each of His children. However, we are told to believe on Christ since He is the physical representation of God Himself, and is the proof given to us of God's existence and great love toward us.
slappy
hi slappy it'doesn't matter if the word is MADE, BEGOTTEN, CREATED it still puts God in the driving seat and First and jesus second after God and so not equal to God and therefore not God. (note there is no mention of holy spirit here)
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Slappy
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8
Furthermore, in the NASB, the phrase "...made himself of no reputation..." is translated as "...but emptied Himself...", which captures the idea that was conveyed in the Greek.
Explain that please!
slappy
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reniaa
Reniaa, I beseech you to look further into the designation "Ancient of Days."
Did you know that some Bible scholars teach this was the Son, and link Daniel 7 with Matthew 25 and Revelation 1 and 13?
I didn't either - until I took off the WT glasses and searched for myself.
There is so much in the Bible that pokes holes in WT doctrine.
Sylvia
hi silvia
I did and if you mean me to start thinking in daniel that the whole vision is Jesus approaching jesus the mind boggles, I mean I knew the Catholics twist some things to help their trinity cause but to do it with this scripture is so out there that even I can't believe it, I'm sorry but using a similarity of white hair in two scriptures as justification in changing the whole idea of the first scripture and it's participants is nuts.
Daniel 7:13
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.the easiest and totally logical explanation of this verse is Jesus approaching God jehovah, but when did easy or logical apply to people wanting to believe jesus is God because easy is when jesus says he is the 'Son of God' that is exactly what he is! the son and not God
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Slappy
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
You have the right of it, however, you are overlooking one fairly important fact, which Jesus himself tells us to keep in mind.
You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29
Do you honestly claim to know all that God is capable of? Just because physically, here on earth, a son cannot also be his father, does that somehow make it impossible for God to be so?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Mark 10:27
If you deny that simple, yet profound, statement, you are denying God Himself. Are you so bold?