by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Deputy,
this kind of theology, what we've seen here in the previous pages of this thread is indictitive of the " I know better, trust me" mindset of the Org.
I all sounds fluid until questions are asked and issues are examined. Lets work this out, Michael vs. Jesus, what came into Marys womb amd what has risen to the heavens.
Any takers? I'm all ears.........
When Jesus was resurrected ... did He become Michael the Archangel again? What happens to Jesus? Michael becomes Jesus again in 1914 to take his Heavenly throne?
Sacolton, you might want to ask Joseph Malik. He seems to be the one with the handle on Christs Michaels atonement properties and who returns and who sits at the right hand.
Joseph is notably absent.
If Jesus blood is the "wine" and his body is the "bread".....what is the butter?......Ooooh gross!
Compare Deut 32:39 and John 1:1 ...
Deuteronomy 32:39
'See now that I, I am He, And there is no gods together with Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand.'
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
If there are no other gods WITH God, how can Jesus be ‘a god’ as the NWT translates it. This is a direct contradiction. Compare:
"…there are NO gods together WITH me...." with "the Word was a god."
Sacolton, Not according to Joseph Malik
ellderwho
Stop picking on Joe. He's still thinking of excuses why not to use John chapter 1 to answer my question.
I think it is safe to say Joseph does not have the answer for you ellderwho. So he ran.
reniaa
I'm struggling here to see what this question brings to discussion of whether jesus is God or not?
Joseph
DD and the Elderwho?Ok. You both will not listen. So you answer the question from scripture. Can you do that? I think not, so prove me wrong.
ellderwho, isaacaustin, sacolton, Slappy It is clear that the first chapter of John was written to answer the very question put to reniaa and Joseph. "What came down from heaven?"
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The simple answer is "the Word". We see in the first verse that "the Word" was, 1)eternal, 2)eternally with God, 3)eternally God in nature.
John 1:2He was in the beginning with God.
We see in verse 2, that John is repeating or emphasizing location "with God". Also notice that here in verse 2, that "the Word" was not an it, but a "He", a person.
There is much more that can and should be said about verses 3-13, but, to simply answer the question from the scripture, lets look at verse 14
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.Notice that "the Word", eternally being God in nature, takes on another nature, "flesh" and location, "among us".
To see this any other way, would require a source other than the scripture.
One more thing of note, that I would like to point out is found in verse 23. That ellderwho mentioned.
John 1:23 He said, "I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,' as Isaiah the prophet said."
Who's way or path was John clearing? A man's? An angel? No. Lets look a the quote from Isaiah
Isa 40:3 A voice is calling, "Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
John was preparing a way "for our God", not our angel!
I noticed the amount of interest this thread generated and prepared my thoughts but never finished them (it was 3am). Nevertheless I am compelled to add. 22 pages of response - wow.
I think that the idea of the trinity is closer to the truth because Jesus is not an Archangel any more than he is the trumpet! He is definitely identified as NOT BEING AN ANGEL. He is repeatedly called god in the Old Testament and the New Testament. And He, Jesus, is worshipped and it is commanded that he be worshipped. The same word for worship of The Father is the word for worship of The Son including when Matthew 28: 17 says " When they saw him, they worshiped him". It is the same word. Therefore one must ask, What is Worship? And what is a "god".
John 1:1 says that the logos was with "ton theon" which Strong's says means "The Supreme Deity". The Father is superior, greater, supremely in charge. That is not questioned. What is asked is whether Jesus denied being God. Isaiah 9 labels him "God". Being God is just what that means. I know that I am not directly answering your reference but others seem to have done well enough.
David wrote that the Son is God. Note my emphasis in Bold. I like The Holman Christian Standard Bible. It is more neutral than the New International Version which has been accused of being influenced by Calvin's ideas of absolute security of salvation.
He makes His angels winds, [ h ]
and His servants [ i ] a fiery flame; ( N ) ( O )
8 but about the Son:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. ( P )
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
this is why God, Your God, has anointed You,
rather than Your companions, [ j ] ( Q ) with the oil of joy. ( R )
10 And:
In the beginning, Lord, You established the earth,
and the heavens are the works of Your hands; ( S )
11 they will perish, but You remain.
They will all wear out like clothing; ( T )
12 You will roll them up like a cloak, [ k ]
and they will be changed like a robe.
But You are the same,
and Your years will never end. ( U ) ( V )
13 Now to which of the angels has He ever said:
Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies Your footstool ? ( W ) [ l ] ( X )
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve those who are going to inherit salvation? ( Y )
Footnotes:
Cross references:
I used The Kingdom Interlinear for many years at the Kingdom Hall. It has a word by word translation of the Greek and the right column has the New World Translation's reading. Many, many times the NWT changed or altered the words and the meaning of a passage. In some places it is a true deceit. In other places words are changed but why? I can't see why but thay should have been left as they are. The Holman Christian Standard Bible is my study Bible but others read more fluidly like The New Living Translation. Notice how Hebrews 1 reads therein. Especially verse 14 which nails down the Jesus is not an angel thesis.
“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father. [ a ] ”
God also said,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.” [ b ]
6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said, [ c ]
“Let all of God’s angels worship him.” [ d ]
7 Regarding the angels, he says,
“He sends his angels like the winds,
his servants like flames of fire.” [ e ]
8 But to the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
9 You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.” [ f ]
10 He also says to the Son,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
12 You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever.” [ g ]
13 And God never said to any of the angels,
“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.” [ h ]
14 Therefore, angels are only servants—spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation.
Footnotes:
Dear girl, you are trying hard and that is so good. The nature of God is very difficult to define. The idea of Jesus the God, and the Son of God is easily seen here in Hebrews 1. Forget putting an "a" into John 1:1. He just is.
Regards,
Paul
