Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane 114 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    True story. Regarding defending the indefensible I have sent multiple e-mails to an educated, smart, born-in elder, in which I presented evidence (usually scans from WT magazines or books) demonstrating the Watchtower's deceptions, errors, questionable doctrines and outright ridiculous past beliefs and statements. His responses in so many words were:

    "Dear non JW, your evidence is tainted" or "the organization is the truth, but you are not spiritual enough to understand it".

    It all boils down to: rational arguments are not satisfactory and rational individuals are not spiritual and can't have access to God's mysterious ways.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    One venerable old JW lady that I admit I gave a real hard time to, what I might now term a "Viviane" time, having seen you in action, she admitted to me in the end that her devotion did not depend upon facts, reason or indeed Truth, it was purely based upon emotion.

    Is "Viviane time" a good or bad thing? So, on this forum I often have religious discussions, in real life, only if someone brings it up to me. Given that I live in the bible belt, that happens somewhat frequently.

    If someone wants to believe and admits there are no facts behind it, that's fine.

    It's unfortunate but it is also a reality that there are many people who do not have the ability to reason logically, nor correlate a series of ideas. However, they do have the capacity to feel, imagine and believe. For these types of people we must show both empathy and sympathy. Leave them be.

    But... they do! They can count money, drive a car, make plans, etc.. Some of them are even engineers! As I said, I never bring it up first, so it's really up to them to keep it to themselves.

    I think that a lot of JWs feel that the claims can be backed up, but that they personally are unable to back them up.They probably think that a GB member or a Bethelite or a CO or a super elder could back them up. JWs of this particular type think that JW higher-ups are so much smarter than they are that they just accept what these higher-ups say and assume the higher-ups can back up what they say.

    That is true. When I was in the process of expressing my concerns, they kept trying to get someone smarter to talk to me, ending with a CO. They eventually told me I was too smart to be a JW.

    As to why they won't admit they don't know... well, I don't know. I think it's a combination of stupidity, stubbornness, and pride. Also, I think it's fear. They might have some nagging doubts that they suppress. They are terrified of the implications of these doubts, so they keep them locked away. To admit they don't know might, to them, be sort of like letting their doubts out.

    I don't know either, but what you are saying makes sense.

    Classic JW use of argumentum ad hominem. They attack their opponent rather than address his argument or question.

    Yeah, it's a last resort, an attempt to explain why they don't or shouldn't have to answer. It's basically running away with their tail between their legs.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    Why can't religious people simply say "I don't know"? What is wrong with that level of honesty? Why all the claims to know stuff and, when caught NOT knowing any of that stuff, the insults, the subject changing, the pretend answers?

    What you observe is disorder and disruption of rational thought process.

    I've come to this conclusion: religion is a contagious disease.

    That said, and since most here have history with the Watchtower religion supposedly based on biblical text, I have an observation of my own: the biblical depiction of Jesus is not of a person who taught a religion but, rather, of a person who taught a way of living.

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    This:

    I think that a lot of JWs feel that the claims can be backed up, but that they personally are unable to back them up.They probably think that a GB member or a Bethelite or a CO or a super elder could back them up. JWs of this particular type think that JW higher-ups are so much smarter than they are that they just accept what these higher-ups say and assume the higher-ups can back up what they say.

    and this:

    As to why they won't admit they don't know... well, I don't know. I think it's a combination of stupidity, stubbornness, and pride. Also, I think it's fear. They might have some nagging doubts that they suppress. They are terrified of the implications of these doubts, so they keep them locked away. To admit they don't know might, to them, be sort of like letting their doubts out.

    I think you've hit the nail on the head. Once, a simpleton Elder told me: "Brother Eden, you're too intelligent for your own good. Don't let your intelectuality derail you from the truth. The GB has done all the research for us, there's no need for you to research anything else. They've prepared all the pap ready for us, you just can't better it or find out things they haven't figured out yet".

    Eden

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    It is not just religion, but all forms of woo, that suffers from the avoidance of logic and evidence.

    It all seems to consist of a few observable things + conclusions based on illogical extrapolation and embellishment.

    • I see exhaust and steam from airplanes in the sky; that is bad. Some people have diseases; that is bad. Governments and other organizations have power and sometimes do things I don't know about; that is bad. Therefore, chemtrails are a massive conspiracy to make people ill.
    • Poo is gross waste matter; I don't like poo. Some people have diseases; I don't like diseases. Disease must be caused by having poo in your colon. Everyone should have enemas to eliminate disease.
  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    It is not just religion, but all forms of woo, that suffers from the avoidance of logic and evidence.

    That's so well stated, rebel8. So well stated!

    Voodoo does not just happen.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer
    Why can't religious people simply say "I don't know"?

    The answer to that question lay in the level of capital a person has invested in a particular idea, and it reminds me of another thread of discussion started here yesterday of an elder who over a period of several years begged Watchtower to give reasons for distinctions held within its blood doctrine. His final letter of resignation bleeds disgust for a manifest unwillingness to say "We don't know" to enforced details of a doctrine for which it never gives reasons for when "We don't know" is actually leveraged by Watchtower as an excuse for what the same doctrine does not enforce. (See Dialogue regarding blood between an active elder and the governing body ) The Watchtower organization has too much religious capital invested in its blood doctrine to dump the whole thing with a frank and honest admission that "We don't know".

  • Chris Hannover
  • economy
    economy
    Viviane

    Good questions. Even Jesus avoided replying to some of the important questions put to him. One classic example: 'I will tell you who I am--if you tell me whether the baptism performed by John the Baptist from God or from himself' (something like this--I don't remember the words exactly)

  • Maat13
    Maat13
    But... they do! They can count money, drive a car, make plans, etc.. Some of them are even engineers! As I said, I never bring it up first
    Counting money is not the same as understanding how money works. Most of this planet operates on a FIAT system or backed by precious metals (e.g. Gold or Silver). 95% of people are clueless as to how either of these mechanisms impacts their daily lives.
    My son is 10 years old. He can drive a car...but he is still immature in his reasoning abilities. As are most religiously blind people.
    Making plans is easy for those who only go to work, go to meeting, read the bible, family study (barf) and maybe a little entertainment. Don't ask a JW to do something out of the box.
    And as far as those engineers, structured learning is all that is required to obtain that title. As to whether or not they can create something new and different and comprehend the correlation of numerology in the bible...that's another story. Real engineers will pick up on number correlations in the bible real fast. And a fast exit from JW doctrine would soon follow. But there is way more than just numbers and engineering involved in understanding the information in the bible.
    The bible contains quite a bit of useful information. Once you understand how and why that information was put forth it will become crystal clear that all religion is refuse. And reserved only for the rabble. Sadly, religious folk only focus on the literal meaning of the scriptures.
    And even if they start a discussion, I'd leave them be.
    Maat


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