Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane 114 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Phizzy

    Viv, that bit about giving the old dear a "Viviane time" (i.e hard time)was meant as a compliment to you. The old dear started out our discussion with a hugely arrogant attitude that she had the truth, and she could back it up.

    By using your method of demanding proof that is real, I gradually wore her down to the point where she did admit she had nothing solid upon which to base her faith, it was purely an emotional choice that she was a JW.

    As she scuttled away from me I did feel a little guilty that I had made her face up to the fact that her precious "truth" was without anything real to support it.

    She remained a JW until her death some months ago, so I never affected her love of her religion, even if she knew after our discussion that it was all baseless.

  • Viviane

    Maat13, you're basically claiming they have no reasoning skills or are mentally undeveloped, yet they can display a high level of reasoning skills and abilities in other areas of their life. I'm not buying that.

    Phizzy, I knew how you meant it :)

  • Vidiot

    Viviane - "Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?"

    If they could back it up, it wouldn't actually be a religious claim.

  • Maat13

    Maat13, you're basically claiming they have no reasoning skills or are mentally undeveloped, yet they can display a high level of reasoning skills and abilities in other areas of their life. I'm not buying that.


    I'm not claiming any of the items you mentioned here. So I can understand why you don't buy it.


  • Viviane
    I'm not claiming any of the items you mentioned here. So I can understand why you don't buy it.

    Then I don't understand what your point is. Mine is that they clearly have some reasoning and logic skills, then demonstrate astoundingly poor use of those skills.

  • Giordano

    Two things to consider............. the Society and the people in the congregation are more important to the average witness then fretting about doctrine and dogma. The lifestyle for most trumps the spiritual.....actually it all gets blended together.

    Secondly Rational Ignorance is at play as well. A JW makes a rational decision not to invest time in learning about something that they are not allowed to believe anyway. So they are ill equipped to debate because what they are provided to study makes no attemp to be anything more then superfical.

    They really have no choice other then to duck, run, hide or desperatly try to find some person who seems to agree with the JW point of view which of course makes for odd bed fellows.

    And as we all know odd bedfellows can get you df in a hurry.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    I am not exaggerating when I say that the most astounding thing that I have seen in my life is how fundamentalist religious people, especially those with a good secular education, defend their untenable beliefs. I know few of those. I have directly asked them questions, in person and by e-mail, regarding the WT false and ridiculous teachings, and their responses are clearly evasive, quite often resorting to responses like "I am spiritual, you are not. That's why you don't understand"

    Theirs is a world without logic. I guess my having been a skeptic and a lover of science all of my adult life, makes my reaction to their responses even more frustrating.

  • redvip2000

    Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

    Back them up with what? Religion is based on faith, not facts.

    2+2=4 is verifiable. It's a fact. It can be proven.

    The idea that an old man with a white beard lives above the clouds and has a magic wand that can do anything is not based on facts, or evidence. It's based on faith.

    Now, the reason this old man that lives above the clouds, doesn't simply provide facts that he exists, so that all mankind becomes a believer, is in itself evidence that this old man is fairytale.

  • budbayview

    Viviane and all the other religious faith haters

    I know I will regret posting this….but

    Why all the hostility, why do you have so much angst for people of faith? By the very definition of the word faith, it will not satisfy you, therefore you should not be surprised at the outcome to your questions.

    Also, realize that even in the world of science and medicine, there are unknowns, and have been miscalculations and error. Does it make them ignorant because of that, or any less intelligent for putting forth something that was understood at the time to be correct but now after refinements and increased knowledge the answers or solutions have been modified. Quite frankly, looking back at science and medicine, there have been some downright silly explanations put forth back in the day. But that doesn’t mean I do not respect my physician now because they displayed a barber pole outside their practices and would cut you open and bleed you if you had a headache.

    Let me ask you a question, explain gravity, what does it look like, how does it feel, and if we are so sure about this force why can’t we control it or manipulate it? It cannot be absorbed, transformed, or shielded against, why is this? Perhaps I should question its existence altogether? But yet, I realize it must be real, that hammer I dropped on my foot surely demonstrated its existence. But I really do not understand it fully, I mean, if I can mathematically quantify it, I should be able to come up with a method to shield it, oh well, I’ll keep trying the tinfoil hat approach, dah, because I must be an ignorant faithtard because I can’t explain this gravity force fully.

    Why can't scientific people simply say "I don't know"? What is wrong with that level of honesty? Why all the claims to know stuff and, when caught NOT knowing any of that stuff, the insults, the subject changing, the pretend answers? The wild calculations of abiogenesis, the crazy story that somehow life just started, yep from amino acids, energy, a lightning spark and then from the primordial ooze, bam life just happens, and then evolving into an upright walking bipod much less just a slimy amoeba floating around. Really? This is as credulous a belief as any, and this is the best theory academia can come up with, “it just happened and all by chance”? I simply don't get it

    Next time when you have to explain to a lay person how we can send pictures, drawings, books, data, files, etc. over the ether halfway across the world, think about your question of communicating to God and you will have your answer, and all the backup source material you need.

    Look, I apologize, I am being really sarcastic to make a point, and I do understand what you’re conveying, but please do not categorize all theologians or religious persons of faith as unreasoned or illogical, and for the smart ass that wants to argue faith and reason is mutually exclusive, do not waste your time. All and all, there are many viewpoints to each side, I make no claim to having the correct side, but I do get to form my own conclusions without prejudice or fear of malice.

    Nacho: I'm a little concerned right now. About... your salvation and stuff. How come you have not been baptized?

    Esqueleto: Because I never got around to it ok? I dunno why you always have to be judging me because I only believe in science.

    Nacho Libre

  • cofty
    Why can't scientific people simply say "I don't know"? - budbayview

    But that is exactly what scientific people do. There are loads of things we don't know yet.

    Science is a method for discovering reality. In the short time since humans discovered it they have made astonishing progress but our knowledge is still in it's infancy.

    Ask any scientist how life emerged from non-life and they will tell you that they don't know yet. However if it is their field they will be able to share some amazing progress that has been made in recent years.

    Your example of gravity is simply an argument from ignorance. Just because you can't explain it tells us nothing. Our inability to build an anti-gravity machine does not refute the fact of gravity. It can be measured and it's effects predicted to a huge level of accuracy.

    Contrast the scientific world-view with faith.

    Believers make astounding truth claims with zero evidence and - even worse - with no coherent explanation of what they claim to believe. They claim to know about an omnipotent deity who is perfectly hidden. They make assertions about something they call a spirit or soul and yet they can't tell us the first thing about it.

    Worse than this, believers take pride in scientific ignorance and argue against facts about reality where it goes against their superstitions.

    People of faith demonstrate the the most extreme hubris while extolling the virtue of humility.

Share this