Why do religious people make claims and then refuse to back them up?

by Viviane 114 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  cofty

  The wild calculations of abiogenesis, the crazy story that somehow life just started, yep from amino acids, energy, a lightning spark and then from the primordial ooze, bam life just happens, and then evolving into an upright walking bipod much less just a slimy amoeba floating around. Really? This is as credulous a belief as any, and this is the best theory academia can come up with, “it just happened and all by chance”?

  As a typical display of wilful ignorance this paragraph annoys me.

  I simply don't get it

  Exactly! How much effort have you made? Which books or articles on abiogenesis and biological evolution have you read?

  I would not criticise faith unless I first understood it very well. Why do you think it is ok to reject thousands of known facts that you have never even taken time to read about?
• 

  Maat13

  Viviane,

  You said,

  Then I don't understand what your point is. Mine is that they clearly have some reasoning and logic skills, then demonstrate astoundingly poor use of those skills.

  This is a nice way of saying they are stupid. Even so, "an astoundingly poor use of those skills" may be their choice and not a mental ailment. I argue that it is their choice.

  Leave them be.

  Convincing someone of something they choose to not want to know is an exasperating exercise.

  The majority of religous folk fall in this category....

  Leave them be.

  The truth is not for everyone.

  Maat
• 

  cultBgone

  Have to agree with Maat on this one...many folks are content with their lives as jdubs. They might have the skills to reason, but they are not in a position where they WANT to use those skills. Some folks need to belong to a group, and are not unhappy about being labeled as JW.

  Who are we to disagree?

  Just because we don't agree, and it doesn't make sense to us (and maybe not even to them), it is their choice.

  Life is much better spent with a smile on our face and with a happy heart rather than being in turmoil over the choices of others. If they want to live a different lifestyle, they'll decide to do it when they are ready...just like we did.
• 

  rebel8

  This thread needs some audiovisual aids.

  
  

  
  

  My new favorite meme:

  
  
• 

  Giordano

  Why all the hostility, why do you have so much angst for people of faith? By the very definition of the word faith, it will not satisfy you, therefore you should not be surprised at the outcome to your questions.

  In general most of us aren't hostile to those who profess a faith. We are hostile towards the leadership of those religions that seek to harm or hinder their own believers.

  The hostility is aimed at the Dogma and the recklessness of belief.

  Example: After we learned about Jonestown people around the world were outraged at Jim Jones and his murderous disciples and saddened for the people who followed and believed in him and died.
  

  The people who died at Jonestown were conditioned to do what Jim Jones told them to do......without question. They attended meetings and listened to Jones preach, they sang songs and prayed together. They also listened to what Jones told them......... that one day some would come to persecute them. That a day would come when they might have to leave their bodies behind. So they practiced drinking the Kool Aid so that they would be ready.

  The WTBTS has promoted a number of reckless beliefs that caused many more people to lose their lives then died at Jonestown. They still teach that a believer most abstain from a life saving Blood transfusion. This is a belief that is as dangerous as drinking the Kool Aid time many thousands more.

  It would be very difficult for me, for instance, to maintain my distance if one of those believers who happened to not be present at Jonestown were to come on this forum and argue that it was the right thing for those people to do because the People's Temple had the truth...... no one else did.

  Most of us have seen that religion and religious belief can be dangerous. Our hostility is not directed towards that person who is mired in a belief system and is reaching out for some help.

  “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
  ― Steven Weinberg
  

  
  
• 

  DJS

  Why? I don't know, but some guesstimates:

  a. Pride/arrogance - Can affect smart or dumb, rational or irrational, educated or un-educated.

  b. Personality Type - Feeler/Perceivers typically 'make up their minds' based on emotions and perceptions. They don't like the facts/evidence to confuse them, and they almost always seek information/knowledge that confirms their biases and reject all other sources. Rational personality types, based on the data, are more likely to analyze all of the data before making up their minds and to reject theism.

  c. Education - As Bono says: "The less you know the more you believe." Studies suggest the more educated an individual the more likely they are to seek evidence before making up their minds and to reject theism.

  d. Intelligence - It is what it is, and studies suggest a strong correlation between lack of intelligence and theism.

  e. A combination or mixture of a, b, c and d.
• 

  Viviane

  Viviane and all the other religious faith haters

  Well, you start out 100% wrong. I don't hate religious faith. It's more like falafel to me. I don't hate it, I just have never tried any I like. Everyone tells me it's delicious, but I've no use for it in any way.

  Why all the hostility, why do you have so much angst for people of faith?

  You've never seen me hostile, so you really are speaking of things you don't understand. Perhaps you mistake an open and honest discussion about ideas where BS woo answers that make no sense aren't accepted and an easy pass for hostility against people?
  
  

  Also, realize that even in the world of science and medicine, there are unknowns, and have been miscalculations and error. Does it make them ignorant because of that, or any less intelligent for putting forth something that was understood at the time to be correct but now after refinements and increased knowledge the answers or solutions have been modified.

  So, you clearly don't know how science works. Science is based upon NOT knowing everying. "I don't know" is the driving force behind all of science. Science and scientist don't claim to have the answers, they claim to have the highest state of knowledge of how things work that is currently possible and know, hope, even, for better knowledge to come along. You have science 100% backwards.

  
  

  Why can't scientific people simply say "I don't know"? What is wrong with that level of honesty?

  That, in fact, is the driving force behind science. We don't know things, so they keep looking. We know some things we think aren't right, so we keep looking. You COMPLETELY get science backwards.

  Look, I apologize, I am being really sarcastic to make a point, and I do understand what you’re conveying, but please do not categorize all theologians or religious persons of faith as unreasoned or illogical, and for the smart ass that wants to argue faith and reason is mutually exclusive, do not waste your time.

  No need to apologize. You *think* you are being sarcastic but that's only because you have everything you said backwards.
  
  

  All and all, there are many viewpoints to each side, I make no claim to having the correct side, but I do get to form my own conclusions without prejudice or fear of malice.

  Absolutely. Should, however, you choose to bring those conclusions up in a public forum, they will be treated as any other irrational idea. One side has evidence, the other side has people that get upset when their continual claims prove false.

  
  
• 

  Viviane

  This is a nice way of saying they are stupid. Even so, "an astoundingly poor use of those skills" may be their choice and not a mental ailment. I argue that it is their choice.

  My words don't belong to you and you don't get to pretend they mean something so you can falsely change them to make whatever point you are attempting.

  When you decide to make a point without being dishonest about what I said, then you are welcome to discuss this again.
• 

  Viviane

  Who are we to disagree?
  Just because we don't agree, and it doesn't make sense to us (and maybe not even to them), it is their choice.
  Life is much better spent with a smile on our face and with a happy heart rather than being in turmoil over the choices of others. If they want to live a different lifestyle, they'll decide to do it when they are ready...just like we did.

  So you're cool with letting children die because of religion? You're cool with Mormon cults that do child marriage? You're cool with beheadings that fundamentalist Muslims believe it is their holy duty to perform?

  After all, it's not hurting you, right?
• 

  Coded Logic

  I wrote this as a PM to budbayview in response to their comment on this thread but I figured I should share it here too for the benefit of everyone else:

  
  

  You posed the question of why there is so much "hate" when people try and justify their beliefs with faith.

  The answer to your question is really quite simple: faith is the worst possible system for coming to knowledge.
  

  Or, to put it another way, faith is the excuse people use when they don't have good reasons for believing the things they believe. To "have faith" is to be sincerely arrogant. This is not attribute anyone should ever seek.

  I believe that what a person believes MATTERS. Because our beliefs are the gatekeepers of our actions - they directly inform how we behave. And if we want to put our good intentions to positive effect then we must have a good system for making determinations about reality.

  There is not a single position - not a single belief - that can't be justified using "faith". And people use faith to justify all sorts of terrible ideas. For example, when the daughter of Travis and Wenona Rossiter became sick they sincerely thought that prayer would cure their daughter (based upon James 5:15, Luke 8:50, etc.). They believed that taking her to the doctor would show a lack of faith. Unknown to them, their daughter had diabetes and after suffering two weeks in the most horrific agony she finally passed away.

  
  Sadly, a simple shot of insulin would have saved her life.

  
  It's not that the Rossiter's we bad people. It's just that they had a bad understanding of how reality works - because of faith.

  And faith is used - sincerely - by millions of people to justify all sorts of horrible things. People use "faith" to try and suppress the rights of homosexuals. People use "faith" to try and suppress the rights of women. People use "faith" to try and suppress other people's religious beliefs and rights to freedom of speech.
  

  If you care about the well-being of yourself and others, if you care about personal freedoms like speech, religion, equality, etc. then you have a solemn duty to try and believe as many true things - and as few false things - as possible. And you have a duty to have good metrics for discriminating between the two.
  

  And therein lies the problem, because faith is the worst possible system for coming to knowledge. It can only ever be right by accident. And, all too often, the bad ideas it produces harms people in horrible ways. The Crusaders had "faith". The leaders of the Spanish Inquisition had "faith". And ISIS has "faith".
  

  Far superior qualities are intellectual honesty, epistemic humility, and a desire to know what is true. These are the backbone of science and reason. To make sure that our preconceptions aren't misconceptions.
  

  Where as faith - unjustified belief - is the exact opposite. It is arrogant, close minded, and dogmatic. It's directly responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human history - and is responsible for most of the current human rights violations going on today - and that, my friend, is why I HATE IT when people try and use faith to justify their beliefs.

  
  

  -CL