Maddie..I`m not a Christian,but I do have Christian friends..They have had similar experiences.....Why?....I don`t know..LOL!!....But..I am happy for you.............
...OUTLAW
I Received The Holy Spirit!
by Maddie 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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OUTLAW
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moshe
Did they mis-spend the funds?
It depends on what you would consider mis-spent. Rutherford didn't think a 16cyl Cadillac or a mansion was out of line either. Nice trips abroad for a pastor are all in line too, if it falls under "missionary" work. He didn't use the money for hookers, so I guess he was entitled to a cushy material lifestyle from the donations. Don't like it- don't come back to the Vineyard.
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VoidEater
The more important question that needs to be asked is not whether Maddie received the 'Holy Spirit', but if every Christian on this Board has received it. If not an explanation needs to be given as to why not, if we truly wish to understand the theological implications of this issue.
I am hardly a Christian apologist, but I am interested in the experience (however it is labeled). It may be that the experience Maddie refers to is always there and always available; when we are (mysteriously) in a receptive state, it may fill us all. Some find that experience though and frame it within a Christian paradigm.
I think the theological implications are that in our culture people tend to deny themselves these experiences, and often posit a difficult path of redemptive prerequisites to allow us permission to have it. And, given the right circumstances, it becomes available.
A person can lead a Christian life for decades and yet never experience something like Maddie expereinced. Why not? Does she have a stronger faith? A different faith? A different chemical makeup?
It seems framing the question in this way forces the experience into a strictly Christian framework, and almost labels this experience a "reward", like a cookie for taking out the trash. I think when we are most wrapped up in seeking answers to questions, we are in a state of awareness that blocks everything but the need to know.
From my perspective, the experience is not unique to Christianity - but this path works for Maddie. Perhaps those that do not find this experience have not found the framework that is beneficial to them.
The way they affect the mind chemically does not seem to differ from a Christian undergoing an ecstatic experience, a Fakir having his own religious experience, or a exponent of Voodo in a religious trance. Each person interprets the powerful feelings that they are undergoing in terms of the religion that they understand and adhere to.
True. And the rituals to the experience differ: Sufis may dance, Christians may take communion, Buddhists may chant.
I am not a believer, but if I were, a question that I would seek answers to is as to why some in every religion are excluded from this powerful and obviously faith-strengthening experience.
It is not a "one size fits all" world. Perhaps we are looking in the wrong places if we desire this experience and it does not come. Perhaps we have not had appropriate training. Perhaps we fear it, distrust it, have been taught to evade it. Perhaps it is something that must be practiced.
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MsMcDucket
I'm happy for you, Maddie! It must feel so good to get such a rush of peace and happiness wash over you like that.
Maddie, you do deserve to be in a religion that you feel happy in and loved in; and without the extra charges!... No blood, not talking to your family, you can marry who you want...so on and so forth. If it works for you, do your thang!
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hillary_step
Void,
It seems framing the question in this way forces the experience into a strictly Christian framework, and almost labels this experience a "reward", like a cookie for taking out the trash. I think when we are most wrapped up in seeking answers to questions, we are in a state of awareness that blocks everything but the need to know.
If you were to read my comments in context, this is what I had already stated in an earlier post and the above comments are just an addendum to this post:
Well, the interesting thing is that ecstatic religious experiences can be biologically measured. The way they affect the mind chemically does not seem to differ from a Christian undergoing an ecstatic experience, a Fakir having his own religious experience, or a exponent of Voodo in a religious trance. Each person interprets the powerful feelings that they are undergoing in terms of the religion that they understand and adhere to.
I am not a believer, but if I were, a question that I would seek answers to is as to why some in every religion are excluded from this powerful and obviously faith-strengthening experience.
Cheers - HS
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BurnTheShips
Well, the interesting thing is that ecstatic religious experiences can be biologically measured. The way they affect the mind chemically does not seem to differ from a Christian undergoing an ecstatic experience, a Fakir having his own religious experience, or a exponent of Voodo in a religious trance. Each person interprets the powerful feelings that they are undergoing in terms of the religion that they understand and adhere to.
A great many mental states can be measured, HS. The biological state of a brain induced by eating a cheeseburger can be measured, the biologicval state caused by thinking of someone you love can be measured also. As you note, one man's cheeseburger is another's falafel, but both are tasty fast food and both are "yummy" but both are described in the respective language of theexperiencer. and these are subjective interpretations of the same experience, IMHO. We speak different spiritual "languages".
This makes me ponder the Tower of Babel account in Genesis. Perhaps it is an allegory for religious "language" division, and not division of spoken language. It certainly has divided humanity to this day. Perhaps it is not that humanity is one, but the languages are many. Perhaps the Spirit is one, but the religions are many.
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hillary_step
Burn,
A great many mental states can be measured, HS. The biological state of a brain induced by eating a cheesburger can be measured, the biologicval state caused by thinking of someone you love can be measured also. As you note, one man's cheeseburger is another's falafel, but both are tasty fast food and these are subjective interpretations of the same experience, IMHO.
This is true in some ways, but given the identical brain measured brain responses in certain strict areasof the brain that these religious experiences invoke, we are speaking not of 'love' and cheesburgers', but Fakir and Christian.
For example, the identical, measurable biological reactions within the brain to religious ecstacy in both Fakir and Christian would have us asking whether a mainstream committed Christian, or indeed a committed Fakir would give each exprience equal validity religiously?
HS
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Big Tex
Big Tex, keep in mind that the Catholic Church decided what went into the Bible. And that just because people claim the book is all inspired doesn't make it so. On the other hand, keep also in mind this excerpt from my JWD profile:
Please measure your god against this scripture: ''He that does not love has not come to know God because God is love.'' 1 John 4:8 ****** While doing that keep in mind 1 Corinthians 13: 4-8 .***** ''You've got to believe in foolish miracles.''Ozzie.
If it isn't loving, it's not from God, because God is love and like you mentioned, 1 Cor. 13 defines love.
Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality. Jesus did not condemn the Samaritan woman for "shacking up" with a man. He set the standard for unconditional love. When he mentions adultery, he expresses facts and ideals, he does not state condemnation. And if you find things inconsistent with love, credited to Jesus in a particular translation, you know it is someone misquoting him or making things up all together.
I believe there is some truth in the Bible, but when it clashes with love, it's not from God. God is love.
FHN, perhaps I posted poorly. I do so often on subjects like this. In all candor there are two subjects that are very close to my heart at this point in my life. One is god and the other is death. The former, I suspect, has to do with unresolved father issues (just typing that makes my skin crawl) and the other is the inevitibility of the subject. I refuse to be afraid, and I will not be afraid to die. I only hope it doesn't hurt. These two subjects are very close to my heart.
I don't really care about the Bible. I've wasted too many years memorizing what illiterite, mysogynostic Arab shepherds had to say. I enjoy reading that chapter because for me it sums up beautifully what the heart of Christianity claims to be. Actually I prefer Hamlet or Macbeth but Paul is okay in a pinch.
I wish I could believe god is love. I would like to. But too many disappointments in life force me to believe otherwise.
I remember something my last therapist told me, it's always stuck with me, and it has to do with how abuse victim process spirituality, as incest is not just a physical act but a spiritual one as well.
Carol told me that, for many people, when a very small child first learns the concept of God they picture their daddy flying in the clouds. And that oftentimes, people impute to God, the characterics and personality of their father (or father figure). She went on to say that when little children learn the concept of prayer they think of God as something like a Santa Claus and will ask for a toy or pressie. When that prayer isn't answered, they often will shrug and move on thinking it doesn't work that way.
When a child of abuse prays to god, there is one thing they ask for. When that prayer isn't answered .... well you can see the difference. The impact is somewhat greater. A child of abuse experiences a side of God that is cold, unfeeling, unknowing, uncaring. When that prayer isn't answered, that child takes it in, makes it about themselves and so the impact of incest and rape becomes that much more damaging.
I will never forget, as long as I live. When I prayed, it was to a full moon. And I think about that sometimes looking up.
Dammit. That was harder to type than I thought. It sneaks up on you sometimes, you know? I'm sorry.
you and I both have been through horrors at the hands of parents. I do believe in free will. And our parents and other adults had free will. This doesn't mean that we were not protected at least in some sense. For me, I was given the comfort of prayer to a kindly God who had unconditional love for all his creatures. I was given the uncanny ability to find ebullient joy in even parts of days and at the same time be terrified to go home to my mother. And I have mostly wonderful memories of childhood, despite my abusive parents. And you and I are both good people, with good hearts now-a-days. You have Nina. I believe very much someone looked out for good hearted you. You are still here amongst the living, encouraging and enriching the lives of so countless many people here on the internet and in your person to person life
Then I envy you. I truly do, with all my heart.
I haven't posted about the worst that happened, nor will I ever. I only post about things that I can handle someone ridiculing. Anything else, always stays offline.
Having said that, what I went through isn't 1/1,000,000 of what I've heard and read from others. And yet, I wake up many nights with an ice cold handprint just above my heart.
I try to be a decent person. Do no harm, help where and when I can and release what negativity I can. At the end of the day, it's not enough. There is still the cold.
I had a dream once that I died and found myself in a boat in a black lake surrounded by desert with an overcast, charcoal gray sky. Except the desert was bitterly cold. I had no coat. There was no snow, no ice, only barren dirt. This is what I'm afraid will happen when I die, and why I much prefer oblivion. Erasure is far, far better and certainly more what I deserve.
And yes, Nina is a gift. She makes me look good. Far more than what I really am.
Maddie I'm sorry. This thread needs to be about you.
Geez I swear I won't post on this thread again. I'm being way too narcissitic here.
Chris
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MsMcDucket
Geez I swear I won't post on this thread again. I'm being way too narcissitic here.
Big Tex, in holy roller churches they call that testifying! They want you to get that stuff off your shoulders. You'd, probably, get a round of applause and a lot of amens and bless him lords with people raising their arms up to the air. You may be overcome with emotion! Then there's the rousing gospel music that gets you more into the spirit!
Totally different from being a witness. The charistmatic churches, generally speaking, don't like canned text. They want your story.
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AGuest
May you have peace... and may all praise for what has occurred for you be given to the Most High God, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and to His Son and Christ, the Holy Spirit... for making their "abode" in you!
For those who offered you words of good cheer and peace... and who may also be wishing and thirsting... may you join me in asking that the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies... and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord and Master, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... the Holy Spirit... also be in and upon them... if they so wish it!
As for those who ridiculed, well... welcome to my world. Take heart, though, for it is to be expected; however, these, too, we should pray for, because... think of it: think of the great rejoicing IN HEAVEN (the spirit realm)... if even one of these were to exercise faith and be called as result. Think, too, of the rejoicing here on earth (the physical realm)!
I bid you the greatest of love and peace!
YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel... and fellow slave of Christ,
SA