Convictions or Reasons - which come first? (page 4)

John Doe

People believe the unreasonable because, as Dawkins says, they are indoctrinated from a young age.

funkyderek

snowbird:

Faith follows the thing heard.

But surely it doesn't immediately follow it? Aren't you missing a step, or do you just believe everything you hear?

The credentials of the One who made everything possible are written in a Book that all can read and decide for themselves to accept or reject.

But on what basis should we decide? Again, do you really think people should just read the Bible and immediately accept it? Or should there be some steps in between? What should those steps be? What if someone gave me tha Bhagavad Gita to read instead of the Bible?

You know, I read in a college biology textbook once about the universal dreams we humans have of falling and the terror that accompanies those dreams.

The author stated that it is her belief that this is a carryover from the time when our ancestors lived in trees! This fear comes from their being jerked rudely awake when they were about to lose their grip and fall out of the tree.

That seems reasonable. I think it refers mostly to that scary falling feeling we get that makes us wake suddenly rather than actual dreams of falling, though.

I thought to myself, could this come from the first couple's fear and terror after they lost God's favor and were driven from the Garden? Were they so deeply scarred by this experience they they passed these primal emotions on to their offspring?

I didn't say anything at the time because I was sure I would have been ridiculed.

Yes, you would have been and rightly so. While the author's hypothesis was unproven and perhaps unprovable, at least it was plausible given what we know of human ancestry. Yours was based on a myth, and even then it seems like a complete non sequitur, the only link at all being a tree.

Now, it doesn't matter.

Glad you don't mind because, when you promulgate ridiculous ideas, as you tend to do, you will likely be ridiculed.

Ideas are meant to be shared, debated, and if found to be untenable, discarded.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. If only you actually behaved as if you believed that!

I have yet to find a reason to discard my belief in the Holy Scriptures.

That can't possibly be true. You believe that humans have only been around for 6,000 years when there is ample evidence that they have been around for closer to 100,000. You believe that humans were created directly when there is overwhelming evidence that we evolved from apelike ancestors. You believe there was a global flood around 4,000 years ago when it is quite simply impossible for that to have happened. And so on. Your beliefs were only ever based on myths to begin with and you cling to them even though they have long since become untenable. Don't pretend that you're just waiting for a reason. You've seen reason, and you've rejected it.

snowbird

If there were no Bible, I would still believe.

Thankfully, there is.

Sylvia

BurnTheShips

Science does not rest on unprovable convictions. Take yourself an apple and hold it in one hand. Grab one more apple with your free hand. How many apples are you holding? This is the most basic, primary school (kindergarten) example of pure mathematical science and it is utterly provable and repeatable.

Observations, as you note, are scientifically provable. Theories can be fashioned to explain observations and to generate predictive power. However. The underlying convictions of science are that reality is how we perceive it whether directly or though instrumentation and that its functions are intelligible to humans and are regular regardless of time or place. These are convictions, and scientific reasoning derives from these convictions. We "prove" things as being true based on these convictions. We confect theories explaing the "hows" of things based on these convictions. These convictions underlie science and are not in themselves scientifically "provable."

BTS the PIA (Pain in the ass)

snowbird

You believe that humans have only been around for 6,000 years when there is ample evidence that they have been around for closer to 100,000.

The Bible doesn't say how long humans have been here, and neither should anyone else. However, civilization can only be traced back to around 6,000 years. Shouldn't that tell us something?

You believe that humans were created directly when there is overwhelming evidence that we evolved from apelike ancestors.

I certainly do because there is overwhelming evidence that we did not evolve from simians. Ever looked an ape in the eye?

You believe there was a global flood around 4,000 years ago when it is quite simply impossible for that to have happened.

I believe Pangea was flooded thousands of years ago, yes.

Sylvia

BurnTheShips

Snowbird:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

With your geographical acumen, I am sure you know that Mt.Ararat is in the general region.

BTS

funkyderek

snowbird:

Of course I don't believe that! Don't be ridiculous. Facetiousness is not becoming to you, FunkyD.

But why not? Millions of Hindus believe it. It's no less plausible than the loaves and fishes story that you do believe. If you had ever believed it in the past, would you have found a reason to discard it?

And I'm not being facetious here. Your beliefs are genuinely no less ridiculous than that belief. The only reason you believe in the loaves and fishes story and not in the army of monkeys story is that you were born in the United States and not in India. That is not a good reason for believing or not believing something.

snowbird

Snowbird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory
With your geographical acumen, I am sure you know that Mt.Ararat is in the general region.
BTS

Just what I was looking for ... "food at the proper time!"

Thanks, Burn.

Sylvia

snowbird

The only reason I believe the loaves and fish story is that I'm convinced a Jewish rabbi, Jesus of Nazareth, God Incarnate, walked this earth, preached a gospel of love and reconciliation, wrought miracles, died in place of us, and promised to come again to rule His creation.

He turned the then-known world upside down. Nothing has ever been the same since. Whether you believe this is a myth or not, you'll have to admit He influenced the course of human events.

Sylvia

BurnTheShips

I believe.

It costs me nothing to do so. It harms no one. And it brings something into me that no empiricism can. It gives me a strength, joy and peace that no scientific theory can.

It is a leap that some will not take.

We all have our path.

BTS

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

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