Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou 97 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fadeout
    Fadeout

    The question has been asked in this thread-- repeatedly-- and no answer has been offered...

    'Why believe the Bible? Since you're just picking a man-made religious text apart from provability, why not view the Koran or the Book of Mormon in the same light?'

    Sylvia admitted that the Bible contains errors, yet she still views it as something worthy of placing one's eternal hope in. I find this confusing and contradictory. I know she's no dummy; she's a worthy trivia opponent. I have no problem with the concept of a God character or even with the idea that he'd have people write a book for him... but you'd better believe I am going to examine the evidence carefully before devoting my life to what these supposed "prophets" have written down.

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    but you'd better believe I am going to examine the evidence carefully before devoting my life to what these supposed "prophets" have written down.

    I have repeatedly stated that I have examined the evidence carefully. I've read the Bible and other "holy" books, and none can touch the Bible in explaining whence we came, where we're going, and our surety in getting there.

    This offer is extended toward all - the unbelievers as well as the believers. That's what I find so impressive about the Bible.

    Sylvia

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    As usual, normal debate has proven impossible thanks to the power of the Bible.

    That bloody book has done more damage to humanity than any other.

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    As usual, normal debate has proven impossible thanks to the power of the Bible.

    That bloody book has done more damage to humanity than any other.

    Oh...? I was under the impression that we have done that to one another. Are you for gun control? Afterall, it's the guns that are causing so many deaths and problems. If we get rid of the guns then there will be less problems. Isn't this the reasoning used? Of course, it has nothing to do with the person pulling the trigger, because the gun is to blame. For without the gun, the person wouldn't have had a trigger to pull. This is all about people not wanting to take responsibility and constantly looking for ways to blame the faults of the world on something else.

    Why is it that you cannot accept our reasonings, but we can accept yours? You use one type of base (your 5 senses essentially) and we use another base (the Word of God). It's not that normal debate isn't possible, it's that you are only want to debate with what you understand. You don't want to go outside your comfort zone. How can we grow as an individual if we don't go outside our comfort zones?

    That being said, your statement is correct. And I know you're going to love this...because the Bible agrees with you. Don't you just hate when that happens? Have a look:

    Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53

    So, you're absolutely right!!!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    One day, my gun walked out of the safe and shot me.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou
    Why is it that you cannot accept our reasonings, but we can accept yours?

    Actually Slappy I wouldn't say that you or Sylvia are 'accepting' rational reasoning anymore than I and some others are 'accepting' your Biblical reasonings. The purpose of this thread was to discuss whether or not our reasoning and argumentation supports our convictions or flows from it. The difference is important, it goes to the root of this discussion.

    It's not about WHAT you believe but WHY you believe it. For example, you go on to say;

    You use one type of base (your 5 senses essentially) and we use another base (the Word of God).

    But your claim that the Bible is the word of god is just that - a claim. An unsupported assertion. All your argumentation flows from this tenet which, in your head, has factual solidity, but WHY do you believe this?

    It's not that normal debate isn't possible, it's that you are only want to debate with what you understand. You don't want to go outside your comfort zone.

    Not true. I'm happy to discuss what I don't understand, it's how I learn. If you're up to it I'd even be open to being convinced of your point of view but you are correct, our bases are so different. You build your paradigm on fantasy and myth, a foundation even less stable than sand. Matt 7:26

    Me? I prefer reason.

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    I have repeatedly stated that I have examined the evidence carefully. I've read the Bible and other "holy" books, and none can touch the Bible in explaining whence we came, where we're going, and our surety in getting there.

    This offer is extended toward all - the unbelievers as well as the believers. That's what I find so impressive about the Bible.

    Not going to pass comment on this let alone pick it apart. Sylvia, you and I live in different Universes, you are clearly happy in yours so I guess I'll just wish you well and wave at you from time to time across the divide.

    All the best,

    Nic'

  • snowbird
    snowbird
    Sylvia, you and I live in different Universes, you are clearly happy in yours so I guess I'll just wish you well and wave at you from time to time across the divide.

    All the best,

    Nic'

    Hello! *waving to Nic from across the Big Water*

    Let's try this one more time, shall we?

    Convictions or reasons - which come first?

    I remember asking my daddy, where did we come from?

    His reply: In the beginning, God made two people - a man and a woman - and we all come from them.

    Me: When was the beginning?

    No one knows.

    Me: How do you know about God and those two people he made?

    From a book called the Bible. It tells us that God made everything else, too. The earth, the sun, the moon, the trees, the food we eat. Everything.

    Me: Did God write the Bible?

    No, some men wrote it a long, long time ago.

    Me: Will you show me the Bible and how to read it?

    I picked up the Bible and it began with these words: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth ..."

    Was I convinced at that time that this was a book of God's revelation of Himself to us? You bet!!! I had no reason to doubt my dad or the Bible.

    Were my convictions ever challenged? Of course! We were sharecroppers, 13 kids (1 died in infancy)stuck in a vicious cycle of poverty due to my dad's alcoholism and my mother's neurosis. I'm sure you get the picture of just how difficult our lives were, but I still found no reason to abandon my faith in God.

    At school, I read every book on religion that our little library stocked. Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, everything! In those days, before the Supreme Court outlawed it, Bible classes were taught at school. I excelled in those and in my history classes.

    I was also good in science classes, but religion and history were my favorites. I remember one science instructor tried to teach evolution, but such a stink was raised that he abandoned it. Of course, I was intrigued, so I began a study of evolution on my own.

    Did my study of evolution dim my faith in the Bible? No. Actually, my faith was strengthened! It was about that time that the Witnesses moved into our community and enthralled us with "God's promise of a peaceful new world that is due very soon." Some, including myself, immediately jumped on the bandwagon.

    I did okay with the Witnesses until all those articles about being obedient to the FDS began to appear. I remember thinking, who do they think they are? Jesus? I also read the Times article about Ray Franz and why he was ousted from the GB. I didn't know what to make of this, but I still managed to hold on to the JW religion.

    Next, came the announcement that the generation/sheep and goats teachings were being changed. The AP picked this up, and I read about it in the Mobile (AL) Register. I thought, it's about time they were dropped. They never made sense, anyway.

    In 2005, I left the Witnesses, never to go back. I began a re-study of the Bible. I found out the Witnesses are wrong on the most important message of the Bible. What is that message? The God of the Bible, the Creator, is our Lord and Savior, Jesus of Nazareth.

    That realization answered a question that had long troubled me. Why would God send an archangel, according to JW's, to clean up His mess? It really warmed my heart and deepened my respect for Him to see that He took it upon Himself to straighten out this hot mess in which we find ourselves.

    Another thing I found out is that there's no evidence that Satan was cast out of heaven in 1914. That put to rest the niggling resentment I'd held against God that He would dump His problem on us, as if we don't have enough already.

    I realize this is a long post - perhaps the longest I've ever written - but as Proverbs 4:7 says, an understanding is everything. I hope you will understand that my reasons for believing in and worshipping the God of the Bible are just as valid as your reasons for not doing so.

    I won't try to talk you out your convictions. They are yours, for whatever reason. You hold on to your beliefs, and I'll hold on to mine. I believe neither of us will be none the richer for it.

    Thank you.

    Sylvia

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