by digderidoo 90 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
It is also the only appropriate response from a government.
It's only one of the different possibly appropriate responses a government, or a divine being, could make, but I wouldn't call it the apex of love because it doesn't address the root of the problems. Besides, it has always struck me that societies with relatively extreme forms of punishment have higher criminality rates than societies with a softer, though more structural, approach. Is the same true for God?
Perry says: You can't change your premise in the middle of a line of reasoning. That isn't logical.
I know that jws' covenant/contract is w the wt corp, not a god or the bible.
So, if one has the power, it is wrong to not use authority to force compliance? That legitimizes any and all govts and any of their power abuses. I fail to see love in the govt or free will to the citizens in that logic. Of course, govts always claim to know and do what is best for the people, since people are like children, not knowing good and bad. Free will allows an eternity for all to discover the right way individually, on their own. All the suffering on the road to that point becomes as naught, in the end. It's all just a big game, anyways, when the universe has evaporated or shrink back down to the size of a pin point.
S
Ps, what is your god's rush?
Well, I don't know why God thinks of me as his enemy. I certainly never did anything to him as painful as that childbirth thingy he did to me! Never raped anyone either. Whatever happened to an eye for an eye?
Cognizant, According to God's rules, the punishment of sin is death. They have a one to one relationship.
If that were strictly true, then why have degrees of sin with degrees of punishment as set out in the old law covenant to the Jews. Why give women painful childbirth? Why allow women to be raped as punishment for sins of their husbands or for not attending God's festivals?
You see, now you are changing the paramenters to suit your argument. If the wages sin pays is death, then death should be the penalty for every sin. Or if it is just "death" as in the sense of a shortened life span, then we all die after 80 years because we all sin. God never said anything to Adam and Eve in the garden before they ate the fruit about increasing the pain of childbirth, thorns and thistles in the sweat of your brow, women and children being raped, plagues, pestilences, starvation etc until after they had sinned.
So, it seems that Christians are not the only ones who change the parameters of the game after the fact. It seems that God does the same thing. Some would call that unfair. Given the untold suffering caused by women dying in childbirth, men, women and children, being raped, enslaved, tortured etc (all things God brings about/allows as punishments for disobeying him that were not parameters laid out to Adam and Even as possible consequences to them and their offspring for "sin" beforehand) others might say, God is one sick, cruel, bastard worthy of our contempt not our worship!
Mankind was made subject to vanity - Romans 8: 20. In other words, God placed man in a position where the natural state of things is for man to only see himself. I believe that it is a necessary psychological condition in a fallen world.
Well if God placed man in that condition where he could only see himself, he has no one to blame but himself when man is self-centered, does he?
In other words, if someone steals some office supplies from work and then they call the police when their car is stolen the next day.... they have a psychologicl problem on their hands that can only be dealt with by denial, rationalization, and self-centeredness. You still need to get up the next day and get dressed to go to work to survive. You need to feel sufficiently good about yourself so that your hypocritical nature doesn't overwhelm you and inhibit your performance necessary to your survival. The way I see it, sin is simply ignored or rationalized (I'm not as bad as that guy over there) as a survival mechinism.Two problems with this line of logic. One, as you just stated, God placed mankind in this psychological condition where he behaves in this ego-centric way of denial, rationalization and self-centeredness. In effect, you are also blaming God for our hypocritical nature. Secondly, I don't assume this situation always exists. You are implying with this response, that people do deserve what they get because in some way, at some time, they have been "just as bad" themselves, but they are just in denial about it. This was in answer to my query of whether women and children deserved to be raped for failing to attend a festival. I doubt, as a loving father, you would be so quick with such an analogy if one of your own beautiful children was raped or murdered. I doubt you would brush it off as something they deserved as sinners and console yourself with the idea that it was justice because they have probably done something just as bad to someone else or at least would have if they had been allowed to grow up. You see, Perry I have absolute faith that you are a more loving father than the God of the Bible and I would worship you before I would worship him. In short, God's "rules" suck and so does he! (if he existed ) Cog
It's only one of the different possibly appropriate responses a government, or a divine being, could make, but I wouldn't call it the apex of love because it doesn't address the root of the problems.
True hamilcarr. If God had only left mankind with a system of punishments for sin, with no other options, then that wouln't seem to address the root of the problem. But, he didn't. He stated promises that he'd work it out with man starting with Gen 3: 15. So, even Adam and Eve had some foundation of hope that God would reverse the effects of their rebellion.
Later, he indicated that faith alone would garner his mercy, eventual pardon, and promotion to sonship. After 4000 years of man trying to keep God's laws (and man's own principles for that matter) and failing to do so, he provided a tool for acheiving the unacheivable...... being born again with the Spirit of God.
Of course, the very idea of having a foreign spirit within us is unsettling to say the least. But I believe God has made two important points over the years with man. His points are basically:
1. Get over it. What difference does it make? You are going to be posessed by some "spirit" anyway. It might be the spirit of a cult, it might be the spirit of the world, it might be the spirit of a certain worldview or philosophy.
2. Even if you could be void of all "spirit" influences, you still have your flesh dominating you which seeks short term gratification at the expense of your own principles.
The largess of God and his Spirit, is the ultimate answer for the smallness of man. Punishment can only go so far.... but it is necessary at times. God, the father has chosen which times are which in our development, both individually and collectively.
A newbie here, posted recently that sin is a social construct, i feel that is right. It is something that has been made up by man for control.Sounds like stuff pumped out of a university sociology class. I know something about that since sociology was my Bachelor college major. Wrote many a social construct paper.
Let's start with a definition of sin:
1. transgression of divine law
2. any act regarded as such a transgression,
3. any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.;
4. to commit a sinful act.
5. to offend against a principle, standard, etc. First, God is pretty clear that he put notions of his law inside of the human. I can see this law at work in my 3 yr. old. He seems to know that drastically harming his brother is wrong...even though he is none too happy about his little brothers' arrival and wanted to know many, many times when he was leaving.
To disregard that definition of sin by saying it is from a sociology class is a very loose argument. That's the same as saying i am going to disregard everything you say because you are a christian.
Your own definitions have been taken out of something, maybe a dictionary but not the bible. The bible clearly says that the wages of sin are death. How can we be born like this and get punished? Surely an unloving God.
Your 3 year old shows that he knows the difference about right or wrong already, without being told by the bible about it. You've kind have shot yourself in the foot with that one.
Punishment can only go so far.... but it is necessary at times. God, the father has chosen which times are which in our development, both individually and collectively.
So it's necessary to kill unborn babies, babies, children, pregnant women, women, men old and young, firstborns, cities, civilisations?
Thanks for your wisdom on the matter, i feel so much more enlightened.
Paul
Satanus,
I know that jws' covenant/contract is w the wt corp, not a god or the bible.
So, if one has the power, it is wrong to not use authority to force compliance?
Punishment does not force compliance. Our prisons are full of folks who are not compliant, though punished. Punishment has to do with justice.
That legitimizes any and all govts and any of their power abuses. I fail to see love in the govt or free will to the citizens in that logic. Of course, govts always claim to know and do what is best for the people, since people are like children, not knowing good and bad.
I guese you are promoting anarchy here?
Free will allows an eternity for all to discover the right way individually, on their own.
At whose expense? Jeffery Dahmer's "right way" was to make "tuna sandwiches" out of people. Eternity is too costly.....it literally costs some people an arm and a leg.
Cognizant, According to God's rules, the punishment of sin is death. They have a one to one relationship.If that were strictly true, then why have degrees of sin with degrees of punishment as set out in the old law covenant to the Jews. Why give women painful childbirth? Why allow women to be raped as punishment for sins of their husbands or for not attending God's festivals?
The Law was simply a tool or a teacher leading to God's solution. The Law, magnifies the knowledge of good and bad, it all it's facets.
You see, now you are changing the paramenters to suit your argument. If the wages sin pays is death, then death should be the penalty for every sin.
Same parameters here Cognizant. We all die. It's still a one to one relationship.
God never said anything to Adam and Eve in the garden before they ate the fruit about increasing the pain of childbirth, thorns and thistles in the sweat of your brow, women and children being raped, plagues, pestilences, starvation etc until after they had sinned.
No, he didn't. He left it to us to figure out what life was like cut off from the Source. Because he seees the beginning and the end, I have faith that that executive decision will yield great good in the end. Growing up, my dad told me lots of things to obey which I didn't. Many of those things I found out the practical reasons as to why I was told to obey.
So, it seems that Christians are not the only ones who change the parameters of the game after the fact. It seems that God does the same thing. Some would call that unfair. Given the untold suffering caused by women dying in childbirth, men, women and children, being raped, enslaved, tortured etc (all things God brings about/allows as punishments for disobeying him that were not parameters laid out to Adam and Even as possible consequences to them and their offspring for "sin" beforehand) others might say, God is one sick, cruel, bastard worthy of our contempt not our worship!
That certainly is everyone's right to feel that way. I for one choose to learn from the vast amount of evidence presented by allowing history to unfold the way it has. It certainly has been a great cost.
Well if God placed man in that condition where he could only see himself, he has no one to blame but himself when man is self-centered, does he?
Fallen man is God's enemy. Vanity and Self-centeredness is the default position of man without God. The Vanity of man proves the need for the re-birth. It doesn't make God blame himself for anything. Of couse, this could be proven wrong ...heal thyself.
The removal of God from man allows for many of the attrocities man has experienced.
Again, the most common theme I hear from unbleievers is why didn't God prohibit (fill in the blank). Or, why doesn't God stop (fill in the blank).
Most of those questions can be answered :
1. Our fallen race is God's enemy. As members of "death row" he can legally allow/cause anything because of our 100% guarantee of breaking his (and for most of us, our own) laws.
2. Man wanted absolute free will, and free will is what he got.
You can't have it both ways with God. It is impossible to desire absolute autonomy, and at the same time desire God to perform certain tasks for a person when they personally do many of the very things they wish God to prevent for THEM.
This reduces God to little more than a genie in a bottle, with him being our servant, and us being his master.
God's chosen method is sonship and daughtership.
I doubt, as a loving father, you would be so quick with such an analogy if one of your own beautiful children was raped or murdered. I doubt you would brush it off as something they deserved as sinners and console yourself with the idea that it was justice because they have probably done something just as bad to someone else or at least would have if they had been allowed to grow up.
I have faith, and now proof within me that He can and will reverse ANY effects of this fallen world.
Your 3 year old shows that he knows the difference about right or wrong already, without being told by the bible about it. You've kind have shot yourself in the foot with that one.
Digdiriroo,
That's why man's plight is so utterly terrible. Not only can he see nothing but his own vanity, he is also possessed with the knowledge of Good and Evil.
This fact is what drives atheists to the brink of insanity in their insistence that good and evil is relative. Moral relativism is a maladaptive attempt to bridge the gap between reality and desire.
God has provided another bidge, that doesn't require the jettison of what is good. That bidge is Jesus Christ. Not only did he take the punishment and death due believers, he went much, much farther. He offers man His very "DNA" to reside within the believer as a force and a guide to be used, or not to be used as the believer chooses. The re-birth offers choice to man that he didn't already have.
It is through this choice (to follow the spirit or not to, without fear of punishment) that allows for the believer to prove to himself the superiority of living by the spirit as opposed to living by the flesh. The regenerated believer's life is different than before in that there is no personal punishment for his sins, them having ALL been dealt with on the cross.
Of course, over time if a "believer" hasn't proved to himself the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, then he probably has just deluded himself into believing some form of false Gospel and never was saved in the first place.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - KJV
That's why man's plight is so utterly terrible. Not only can he see nothing but his own vanity, he is also possessed with the knowledge of Good and Evil.
This fact is what drives atheists to the brink of insanity in their insistence that good and evil is relative. Moral relativeism is a maladaptive attempt to bridge the gap between reality and desire.
Christians do not have a monopoly on morality, which is what you seem to be suggesting.
Paul
