Thinking of becoming a Witness again and my reasons for doing so :(

by reniaa 383 Replies latest jw experiences

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  reniaa

  Thankyou to those prepared to read all 9 pages lol I am not quite are sure at going back as you would have me be:) lol I'm at the toe in water stage, I did come on this site at my sisters request because she said I should see what was against the witnesses and such a lot of info has been thrown at me on this thread alone as well as researching back info on this site i'm still wading through it :s.

  Every religion has a weak point biblically! with witnesses for me it's the Blood issue ( icertainly think jesus talk of saving lifes on the sabbath does make a good argument against it) and conclusions of future prophecies which I haven't researched yet. But with christianity outside of witnesses their Weakest arguement is the Cross because it fails on 2 fronts, stauros/stake issue which we are currently discussing and the fact it is by bible definition and usage an idol, and anyone who isn't a JW might not realise the first stauros issue because we are not bible scholars and so JW's pointing that out does bring the stauros to our attention, but any normal person reading about golden calf etc in any bible can come to the conclusion the cross is an idol. If the ark still existed would we start wearing miniture arks round our necks?
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  coffee_black

  After 10 years out, I think you are looking at the organization with rose colored glasses.,,,seen through eyes that have gone through a lot of pain. It is an illusion. Wanting it to be "the truth" doesn't make it so. It is not a refuge where you will find peace and acceptence... The friendships within the organization are not real friendships...,they are surface only...there are exceptions, but they are very rare.

  Sometimes people have to go back to realize that it is not what it claims to be. Go...learn that lesson for yourself. As my mother used to say, "sometimes you have to learn the hard way."

  Wishing you well

  Coffee
• 

  Sirona

  Reniaa

  I will answer your post in detail now. Allow me first to say that I understand that you have had some really tough times. I also understand (a little) how it must feel to be heavily pregnant and alone. You are looking for support and you remember how the JWs used to be nice to you.

  I am pregnant myself. I am not married, but I have a partner who posts on this board (Gary - Diamondblue1974) and we are 100% committed to each other. Gary is a moral person and so am I. It does upset me that you can speak of "worldly" people in the way that you do. We (me and Gary) treat each other well because we love each other and we are nice people - we have deep spirituality which permeates our entire lives and we do help others wherever we can. This is the same for many people on this board. Some follow the bible, some don't, but just because you've known a load of horrible people doesn't mean that the whole world is full of horrible people.

  Thank you sirona hmmm very honest! I can you are not a little unhappy with JW's,

  I've been "out" for 8 years. I'm not actually bitter, I just come across as very direct so it can be misconstrued as being angry or something. In the early days I was angry, mainly because I could see really clearly where I had been totally lied to by the JW organisation. I don't blame individual JWs (in fact there are some individual JWs who I love very much) I blame the Watchtower Organisation and its leaders. If you research the definitions of "cult" the JW organisation does fit !

  I have been very honest too and if you check my sources in all cases I was careful not to quote Witness sites or scripture using other bibles and sites, the one i used on stauros is not a witness one and indeed condemns them using 'Torture Stake' saying it is incorrect you would not get that on a witness site.

  OK sorry I stand corrected. Leolaia will respond perhaps to your comments on the cross / stake argument. She really is impressive....click on her profile and post history and you'll find someone who is amazingly knowledgeable about scripture and both Hebrew and Greek. On this board she has repeatedly proven that the JWs have lots of things wrong in their translation and doctrines.

  Sirona you can't just say I'm spouting JW propaganda because in the end if stuff wasn't outside of the organisation we wouldn't be even having this discussion, I'd be agreeing with you, I've been honest from the start saying I was tempted to go back therefore I will be more in favour than against,

  The facts are, Reniaa, that "stuff" is outside of the JW organisation and it is also inside the JW organisation. Also, I think your view of "worldly" people is seriously tainted by your own experiences and you've simply not been associating with the nicer people! Believe me, there are nice people out there! Moral people, loving people, charitable people.

  I do resent you saying "We know more than you so shut up we are right," trust me that makes you more like the witnesses than you accuse me of.

  I did not say that. I said that you cannot just ignore all the evidence and put your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la". Things like the flood are disproven by concrete evidence. Now you might want to say that the story of the flood relates to a local flooding in that region or some other explanation, but saying that less than 4000 years ago the whole globe was deluged and 99.9999% of humankind were killed along with most animals, is simply proven to NOT be true. No amount of wishing will change that fact.

  I may not be a great scientist but I reserve the rght of any person to do my own research and come to my own conclusions,

  Well I'm not a scientist. I admit that. So if I'm truly researching something, I gather as much scientific information as I can and I weigh up the evidence based on what qualified people have found. Now in the scenario where someone shows me lots of scientific studies (and the details of those studies) which show that black is black then I'd be very silly to reach my own conclusion that black is actually white. Do you see my point? I could say to the scientists "you have gotten things wrong before therefore I won't believe you that black is black" and this doesn't make any sense. We might as well say that the earth is not spherical because the scientists have got things wrong before so maybe they're wrong about that too? Even if they show me photographs and evidence that the earth is a sphere I can say "no, you've got things wrong before so I think that the earth is flat."

  Aren't you falling into the trap of hating them and trying to disprove them from that point of view, doesn't that make you more predjudiced than I am? who at least is trying to step back and be in less of a mindset either way for or against?

  I don't hate the individual JWs. I hate the effects of this mind control cult. You also forget that I researched all this 7 or 8 years ago and I've been studying religion ever since. You, by comparison, appear to be completely disinterested in any other faiths. For you, its either JWs or the EVIL world. For you, it appears to be the bible or nothing (atheism). Don't you realise that there is other spirituality out there? This is what I meant by lack of education. Sorry you feel offended but I suppose the truth hurts.

  Lets see what people have said to you in this 9 page thread. Then think about whether you actually listened to any of them.

  R Crusoe
  I think Reniaa that Sirona and Leo are very adept at finding all manner of research to open your eyes to the reality that the WTS will have you blind to!

  Kerj2leev
  Look, it's pretty easy to see, you really want to become a witness again. If that is what you want, then just do it!

  mrsjones5
  Ditto...yeah I read all nine pages

  darkuncle
  I think therapy would be very helpful, as would exploring other spiritualities.

  Jeffro
  But please, please try not to even think in terms of people being either 'in the truth' or 'worldly'. These are harmful concepts designed to make it difficult for you to form close friendships with non-JWs.

  RAYZORBLADE
  blah, blah, blah, blah, Ginger.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/154578/1.ashx

  Voideater
  It sounds like you want to go "back home" because it was "so nice back then and back there".

  I really am inclined to agree with Rayzorblade and say Blah blah blah Ginger. Because no matter what the evidence you are given, you choose to ignore it because in your heart you want to believe the JWs are right.

  Sirona
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  R.Crusoe

  Renniaa,

  As far as religion goes I have to conced you and I are on different wavelengths!

  I was where you are about 1 year ago!

  Now I dont even imagine the Bible is divine!

  You missed my points completely!

  Maybe I am an apostate to your subconscious?

  Good luck on your journey!

  If you ever desire a chat feel free - I sense something about you genuinely searching but I half sense the stacks of WT circles and spirals of reasoning/emotions/guilt/judgement I finally unwound and got back to zero from!

  Lots of love to your family and I wish you a fun time ahead compared to the one many religions offer! Just chilling and maybe finding regular people with an interest in Biblical/religious introspection isn't easy but its what I think you feel is missing from life and why sites like this are unique - unless you live near some of us it hard to have it in reality!

  Best wishes erm, of health (not sure if you're over that bit yet)
• 

  reniaa

  Hey there jgnat can you give me a few links to leolaiaa studies that i may have missed on this thread, I'll be honest I'd have 2 questions to ask here

  firstly I'd ask her if in both greek and hebrew is there a word for cross other than stauros and xylon that could have been used as an alternative, a definate word that only means Cross?

  Secondly with the cross being so central to the Christian Doctrine why use a wishy washy words for something that not only describes jesus's death but a whole belief because of the 3=1 God thing, making sign of cross etc to represent them. Surely for something so central it would have been definately put down and described in detail?
• 

  R.Crusoe

  I'm very cross with you!

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQLD59fK_Iw
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  kerj2leev

  Another observation that I have. Being a single mother with 2 children, one with special needs, you sure have plenty of time to waste on the boards. I mean with all the research and energy you spend on them wouldn't it be more productive doing something else?

  Your points are becoming a bit redundant.....again if that is what you want to believe DO IT!
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  mrsjones5

  Secondly with the cross being so central to the Christian Doctrine why use a wishy washy words for something that not only describes jesus's death but a whole belief because of the 3=1 God thing, making sign of cross etc to represent them. Surely for something so central it would have been definately put down and described in detail?

  IMO it's not as central or as important as you think. The cross is a symbol of Christ sacrifice. It's really not important what instrument was used, the important thing is the reason for the sacrifice. I'm sure there are others who can explain this better than I.

  Josie
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  jgnat

  firstly I'd ask her if in both greek and hebrew is there a word for cross other than stauros and xylon that could have been used as an alternative, a definate word that only means Cross?

  The genius of Leolaia's research is that she definitively shows that stauros was used for all sorts and shapes of crucifixion devices. The most prevalent use is for the crosspiece. So it is likely as Jesus was dragging the stauros through the marketplace, he was carrying the crosspiece.

  If you have a crosspiece, of course, you have a cross.

  In a modern illustration, when we use the word "cab" today we typically refer to a taxi. Even though the root word brings to mind a horse drawn coach or carriage. I can imagine an interstellar scholar thousands of years hence, studying the ancient language of English, might erroneously conclude that all New Yorkers in twentieth century America got around in horse and carriage. He could even produce evidence from ancient pictures of Central Park. But he'd be wrong.

  I had buried the pivotal link in one of our PM's. Perhaps it was buried in the text. Here it is again.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/92381/1.ashx
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  reniaa

  hi sirona thankyou for replying,

  I also understand (a little) how it must feel to be heavily pregnant and alone. You are looking for support and you remember how the JWs used to be nice to you.

  I am pregnant myself. I am not married, but I have a partner who posts on this board (Gary - Diamondblue1974) and we are 100% committed to each other. Gary is a moral person and so am I. It does upset me that you can speak of "worldly" people in the way that you do.

  I have to admit there is a bit of wanting those friendships again, but the second I still have problems with, yes people can be good or bad, I don't actually think of people as wordly but I do think the world is worldly if that makes any sense, I think we are encourage currently to be very selfish and disconnected from each other by TV, governments etc etc but I'm not firm on this because I do recognise my emotional pregnant state has maybe me more negative.

  OK sorry I stand corrected. Leolaia will respond perhaps to your comments on the cross / stake argument. She really is impressive....click on her profile and post history and you'll find someone who is amazingly knowledgeable about scripture and both Hebrew and Greek.

  I will i would be very interested in her answers to my question but one thing I've learned from trawling on atheists site is especially on science and scholars, You can have many experts that disagree with each other you end having to choice one yourself anyway so back to square One, I would introduce her to someone called Roger Pierce he's a greek scholar who proved a good friend, he handles a lot of the original manuscripts.

  http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/member.php?find=lastposter&t=239142

  Believe me, there are nice people out there! Moral people, loving people, charitable people.

  but I also know there are a lot more of the alternative to these loving, charitable people :(

  Now you might want to say that the story of the flood relates to a local flooding in that region or some other explanation, but saying that less than 4000 years ago the whole globe was deluged and 99.9999% of humankind were killed along with most animals, is simply proven to NOT be true. No amount of wishing will change that fact.

  With this you have possibly the biggest argument against the Bible because we are thrown into the appologist viewpoints to explain if it did happen, there are 2 points in a global floods favour though, first the thousands of ancient flood stories talking of a global flood to the point were you can argue racial memory, these are not made up and exist in reality of archaeology. Secondly "Absence of evidence is not evidence of lack" (did I quote that right) Science cannot physically go back in time and say for definate a flood didn't happen and so they are basing opinion on evidence that is taking from strong facts so still room for argument, Although I will say they have the stronger case atm.

  I weigh up the evidence based on what qualified people have found.

  Me too but I find these guys don't always agree and as I said above you end up having to weigh one qualified persons opinions against another using your own judgement, square one again.

  You, by comparison, appear to be completely disinterested in any other faiths. For you, its either JWs or the EVIL world. For you, it appears to be the bible or nothing (atheism). Don't you realise that there is other spirituality out there? This is what I meant by lack of education. Sorry you feel offended but I suppose the truth hurts.

  You do me an injustice here assuming I haven't done research on other religions besides Christianity, I just haven't mentioned them so far, I checked most other ancient writings but found of those I researched they lacked the archaeological heretage of the bible, very different in fact, not much on peoples places and happenings like the bible but more on words of wisdom etc much like what you quoted. I hope you see I want to believe in something that has some reality to it to hinge on? otherwise I may as well just believe in UFO's like some I met on the doors once who they were waiting to be collected :S

  Are you christian or atheist yourself? you words on have me wondering?

  I really am inclined to agree with Rayzorblade and say Blah blah blah Ginger. Because no matter what the evidence you are given, you choose to ignore it because in your heart you want to believe the JWs are right.

  Sirona

  You have apoint but I am not an unquestioning accept the statement type as the witnesses would find out if I started asking questions of them again. :)

  reniaa