Moral Values of an Atheist (page 8)

Zico

Gopher:

I agree with your definition of good.

It's interesting to me that "Society" seems to have created social mores that emphasise community over self, and which seems to transcend the notion of 'survival of the fittest'

On my opinion that people aren't inherently good, I don't think a knowledge of good and bad is something people are born with. I think it's something that is developed during our lives based on experience and cultural imprinting, and thus, I believe Christianity has had an influence on it, and I was questioning how 'atheist values' could be higher when they seem so alike to me, and when one had strong influence on the other, as this is what the thread is about.

I understand your analogy though.

Hamilcarr:

You agree with the importance of the golden rule and accept it as a part of Christian ethics, yet you believe atheists have 'higher values' What makes it higher? Just that you believe they follow their values better?

I can't see where a Christian would disagree with you on your definition on good, so I can't see the basis for any claim to be 'higher' than another. and where do you think YOU learned the Golden rule from?

"I started this thread because I had observed that while christians claim they are the protectors of ethics their 'love thy neighbor' is less universal than atheists"

I too have had the pleasure of meeting some wonderful atheists and their are many on this board. I've also met some wonderful christians and again, their are many on this board. I'm curious, how much experience have you had with Christianity outside of the walls of the Watchtower? Even if you accept Jehovah's Witnesses as a Christian denomination, they're certainly a minor one among a very diverse group of people.

Lore:

I mean that, I believe Christianity has had some influence, not necessarily all influence, on our moral values, whether we are currently Christians or not, I don't mean that they invented morality.

Twitch

I tend to think that even defining what is moral is a feat in itself, never mind what is a "better" moral and who gets the gold star.

5go

There is nothing wrong per se with killing people. Murdering people however is wrong.

Funny how a people who believe their savior died wrongly would say killing a person under certain circumstances is OK. The Pharisees argued a legal reason to kill Jesus and Pilate agreed that it was a valid legal reason to execute him. Though he tried to get the Pharisees to drop the charges do to his belief the defendant was really insane. They of course wouldn't so he had to carry out justice.

BurnTheShips

Why?

It is natural law. It is an ingrained human behavior. Only when human nature is perverted does murder become natural to us. Unless acclimated to it, we recoil from taking human life. Atheists are just as subject to natural law as theists are.

Aquinas:

 the natural law can be blotted out from the human heart, either by evil
 persuasions, just as in speculative matters errors occur in respect of
 necessary conclusions; or by vicious customs and corrupt habits
I answer that, As stated above ([2034]AA[4],5), there belong to the
 natural law, first, certain most general precepts, that are known to
 all; and secondly, certain secondary and more detailed precepts, which
 are, as it were, conclusions following closely from first principles.
 As to those general principles, the natural law, in the abstract, can
 nowise be blotted out from men's hearts. But it is blotted out in the
 case of a particular action, in so far as reason is hindered from
 applying the general principle to a particular point of practice, on
 account of concupiscence or some other passion, as stated above (Q[77],
 A[2]). But as to the other, i.e. the secondary precepts, the natural
 law can be blotted out from the human heart, either by evil
 persuasions, just as in speculative matters errors occur in respect of
 necessary conclusions; or by vicious customs and corrupt habits, as
 among some men, theft, and even unnatural vices, as the Apostle states
 (Rom. i), were not esteemed sinful.

LtCmd.Lore

Lore:

I mean that, I believe Christianity has had some influence, not necessarily all influence, on our moral values, whether we are currently Christians or not, I don't mean that they invented morality.

In that case I agree.

But I would add that not only has Christianity had some influence on our moral values, but so has Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, Animism, Satanism, Mormonism, Atheism, Humanism, Judaism, and Haruhiism.

Psalms 53: 1 Only a fool would say, "There is no God!" People like that are worthless! They are heartless and cruel and never do right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

BurnTheShips

Funny how a people who believe their savior died wrongly would say killing a person under certain circumstances is OK

Taking human life, while unfortunate, is sometimes necessary, and just also. Surely you can see this without my having to erect a hypothetical situation?

Burn

hamilcarr

Hi Zico,

too have had the pleasure of meeting some wonderful atheists and their are many on this board. I've also met some wonderful christians and again, their are many on this board. I'm curious, how much experience have you had with Christianity outside of the walls of the Watchtower? Even if you accept Jehovah's Witnesses as a Christian denomination, they're certainly a minor one among a very diverse group of people.

Sure, JW are only a small part of the Christian story. To answer your question, I've had lots of experience with Christianity outside of the Watchtower walls. I'm born and raised in a secular European RC country and due to the international character of Brussels, the city where I'm living at the moment, I've enjoyed long discussions with American orthodox christians, Mormon missionaries, Anglican peers, Catholic nuns and many born-agains (mostly pentecostals). I count among my close friends two devout Muslims. I highly appreciate all of these acquaintances, most of them are lovely and tolerant people with an above-average intelligence, like some of the JW I know.

hamilcarr

Hi again Zico,

I can't see where a Christian would disagree with you on your definition on good, so I can't see the basis for any claim to be 'higher' than another. and where do you think YOU learned the Golden rule from?

Neither would a Muslim. But there's always a huge gap between between theory and practice. The verse after the Golden Rule (Mtt 7), for instance, mentions a broad way leading to destruction. Most christians I've met have a very dualistic view on reality indeed, like good things are really good and bad things are bad.

I didn't learn the golden rule from a book, I learnt it through practice and education.

I'd never claim to be higher than anyone else, but I think it's possible to claim someone's values are higher or lower than average. When you start claiming that some groups are worthless (cf. real one), your moral values obviously are inferior.

Kind regards,

H.

Sirona

What does it mean to be an atheist? It means you cannot imagine your homosexual neighbor being slaughtered by a loving God at Judgment's Day, it means you don't consider the primitive tribe described in Numbers 31 that slew Midianite men and raped innocent virgins to be God's first covenant people, it means you don't believe mankind is so perverted that it is in need of salvation through a man who came 'not with peace, but with a sword', it means you have high moral values that apply not only to the members of your denomination but to all men.
H.

One thing annoys me about your post. You assume that someone is either atheist or they're a bible believer or a christian.

I have all the values you stated but I am not atheist. I'm neopagan.

Sirona

hamilcarr

Hi Sirona,

I totally agree with what you're saying. There are many groups sharing the same values. This post was principally directed to all christians who believe that the Bible is God's inspired word and a reliable guide for our modern world.

H.

Moral Values of an Atheist

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