The Suicide of Jason R: a rational battlecry

by inkling 69 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  jgnat

  Dawg, my comment was not intended to be a personal attack. I'm not angry. I'm a skeptic, and I am bound by those rules. That means I must not believe in anything that has not yet been proven. This has resulted in some interesting conclusions, which I'll share later.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism

  My assessment of your approach, dawg, which is not intended to be an attack on you personally, is that you come to a conclusion and then seek supporting evidence.

  dawg: the completely logical conclusion that a story such as this could be true

  A skeptic does not have that luxury. Could is not the same as true. Therefore it must be assumed as untrue until proven otherwise. That is, even if I dearly want it to be true, I cannot accept it as so. Without proof.

  dawg: And you find it hard to beleive that this young man's death was covered up so an GB member wouldn't be exposed... good, believe what you want

  The circumstances of the death may very well have been covered up. I'd be as happy as anyone to confirm that. But until it's proven.... Like I say, my philosophy prevents me from believing so.

  Now for the story of this skeptic's evolving faith. I was cornered by a Witness last weekend, who asked me four questions:

  Q: Have you studied the bible?

  A: It's been twenty years since I became a baptized convert. I've been through the bible many, many times.

  Q: Do you believe there is only One True God?

  A: Of course there is only one God.

  Q: Do you believe there is a Satan?

  A. I believe there is great Evil.

  Q: Do you believe in Adam and Eve?

  A. You mean in the parable of Adam and Eve? The bible is full of metaphor, don't forget.

  I sensed a deep rumble from the Witness with that last answer. I'm sure I am now tagged as a rank "unbeliever". Frankly, I surprised myself with the answer. But it is the only conclusion I can safely come to with the evidence at hand.
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  DT

  Could is not the same as true. Therefore it must be assumed as untrue until proven otherwise. That is, even if I dearly want it to be true, I cannot accept it as so. Without proof.

  What's the difference between assuming something is true and assuming it's not true if there isn't enough evidence for either conclusion? It's rare to have proof of anything. Usually, all we can do is weigh the evidence to try to get a good idea of the probability of something being true and hopefully be willing to alter our view if new evidence comes in.
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  jgnat

  DT, it has to do with the style of reasoning. Start with what you know and then build from there.

  The other style, to cherry pick beliefs based on preference or wishful thinking, does not build a cohesive belief system. Such a system would always have holes.
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  jgnat

  Oh, I better add:

  weigh the evidence to try to get a good idea of the probability of something being true and hopefully be willing to alter our view if new evidence comes in

  This is perfectly fine, too. One also must look at the quality of the evidence. To be there yourself is the most reliable. A document or snapshot in time (like a real snapshot) is next best, because it is most likely not to be altered by time or circumstance. It is better to investigate closest in time to the event because history also alters. Witnesses are the most variable, so it is always best to have more than one.

  In this case, there is very, very little known. There are at least five claims that bear investigating.

  1. Did a young man die while at Bethel, and were the circumstances of his death covered up?
  2. Was that young man buried, then exhumed and cremated, to cover up the circumstances of his death?
  3. Was there a court case surrounding the circumstances of his death and the treatment of his body?
  4. Did that young man leave any clues as to why he committed suicide, and did it involve a GB member?
  5. Did Daniel Sydlik proposition the young man?

  Even the public documents we would expect to find, like evidence of a court case, they have not been found. Not even the first or the third claim have been verified. The Watchtower society could not have expunged the results of a criminal court case. There would be a paper trail.

  I am most suspicious of the fifth claim.
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  dawg

  Hey Gnat, I appreciate your kind words...

  I also have my doubts about DanSnydek being the culprit and can understand your reasoning...
• 

  Chevelle

  Whatever really happened, it's a tragic story.
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  was a new boy

  In 70's Daniel Sydlik mentioned he used to cradle his then wife in his arms when she was a child. Which doesn't mean he wasn't bisexual.
  

  
  

  I do know he came down hard on homosexuality. About 1980 a bethelite told me he had gotten sick at his Kingdom Hall one evening, left the meeting and came back to bethel early. He walked in on his roommate getting it on with another bethelite.

  
  

  Next day he told Daniel Sydlik, 'We have homosexuals here.' Dan wanted to know immediately who it was. He wouldn't tell him, said he wanted the guy to turn himself in. Which he did a couple days later.
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  Diogenesister

  New Boy I know you've mentioned a young suicide whilst you were at Bethel or shortly before?

  What do u think of this story?
  

  Regarding this thread, is it possible a Watchtower doctor could lie about cause of death on the death certificate? Surely it's not possible to claim someone who threw themselves from a high building, died of an aneurysm? To diagnose an aneurysm you need an autopsy, for an autopsy you need a coroner! (Lying to the parents would be pointless, too, because they'd see the death cert.)

  It's not about would they lie (we know they would) but more to the point could they?

  As to why he took his life, it could have been because he was same sex attracted. Any high up or anointed Bethelite propositioning him may have led him to question his faith, not even necessarily a GB member. Especially if it made him aware of other Bethelite relationships.

  Unless a Watchtower doctor falsified his death cert & Watchtower cremated him without the correct legal documents, I can't see how this could happen?

  The only thing we know for sure is that this young man tragically died from his own hand.

  Dan wanted to know immediately who it was. He wouldn't tell him, said he wanted the guy to turn himself in. Which he did a couple days later.

  Yeah...we don't police each other as Christians - you must turn yourself in or else!!

  We need two witnesses before we can take action on any sin...unless it affects Watchtower then it's only one!
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  notsurewheretogo

  cum down hard on homosexuality

  I think a few in Bethel have done that
  
  
• 

  was a new boy

  
  

  Diogenesisteran hour ago

  New Boy I know you've mentioned a young suicide whilst you were at Bethel or shortly before?

  Diogenesister 2 months ago

  Was A new Boy Have you seen Prodigal Ali's (Formily Ali's Big Toe)recent video where she sings the praises of your book?

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4857651817611264/do-jehovahs-witnesses-maintain-database-sudden-deaths-within-bethel-families-around-world?page=2

  wrong New Boy

  
  

  https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/users/4770/new%20boy/topics