Self Deceit and Faith. (page 16)

BurnTheShips

Not a problem if you believe in Miracles.

I do. ;-)

Burn

If we define self deceit as "misconception that is favorable to the person who holds it" then we have no objective basis to test faith in “god” (for example) as to self deceit because until we have a means to verify what is “god” then we have no basis to determine misconception of “god”. To my knowledge we have no means of verifying what is “god”.

Marvin Shilmer

hillary_step

Burn,

Not a problem if you believe in Miracles.

Are the miracles you believe in that such things as I mention took place (virgin birth, sole redeemer, worldwide flood, resurrection from the dead. etc. etc that I noted above), or that they were taught by religions that were not attached to the Bible in some cases millenia before they were even mentioned in scripture?

You are aware for example that the myth of a 'virgin birth' is not a Christian concept but pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years? Satanic intervention, or one religion borrowing myth from another?

HS

greendawn

Hillary, what is so far fetched about telepathic communication? Scientifically speaking according to the quantum theory everything is made up of energy including our thoughts and feelings and these produce brain waves that can be detected by instruments and indeed have their own electronic signature.

From there it wouldn't be a big leap to imagine these waves travelling in space and getting absorbed, received, by another brain that is tuned to them. In fact I am pretty sure all humans experienced telepathy especially with spouses and close relatives. The brain still holds many mysteries.

As for those getting deeply involved into demonism such as black magic suffering serious harm as well as causing it to others is another well known phenomenon that is worth noting and studying. I personally witnessed someone struggling to overcome demonic possession which happened after he entered into a marriage contract with Satan written with his blood. His anguish seemed very real to me and not some kind of delusion.

BurnTheShips

Are the miracles you believe in that such things as I mention took place (virgin birth, sole redeemer, worldwide flood, resurrection from the dead. etc. etc that I noted above), or that they were taught by religions that were not attached to the Bible in some cases millenia before they were even mentioned in scripture?

Some of those things, yes. I don't think the worldwide flood had to be worldwide. I think it seemed that way to those that experienced it. And there are flood legends wide and far like the Gilgamesh Epic. Check out the Black Sea deluge theory. A miracle? Maybe not. But is certainly would have seemed that way to those people. "Any technology, if sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic".

You are aware for example that the myth of a 'virgin birth' is not a Christian concept but pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years? Satanic intervention, or one religion borrowing myth from another?

Perhaps neither. Perhaps the Christian God was already laying the meme in place for when He came. Perhaps a coincidence. Perhaps the accounts are so different that really the one is unlike the other save for one glaring similarity (as Leolaia has pointed out recently) and we are wrongly inferring the rest. Either way, correlation does not prove causation HS.

I know you are going to now accuse me of some sort of dishonesty but I am being as straight with you as possible.

I believe in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the Son of God. And I believe it was a miracle. Yes, it has a strong grip on me.

Burn

Superfine Apostate

i predict "burntheships" will be an atheist 2 years from now

Vinny

Hilary has questions.

You would have to consider JUST WHY the JW's refuse to consider examining critical information which challenge those beliefs. And since most of us were JW's, we are quite familiar with just WHY most JW's will not even consider critical examinations; BECAUSE THEY ARE TOLD NOT TO.

hillary_step

Vinny,

Once again, as long as their beliefs are sincere and genuine TO THEM!

Sincere and genuine beliefs are strewn throughout history and prove that they have nothing to do with reality.

The problem is that self-deception has nothing to do with sincerity, loyalty, or any other quality. In the framework of this discussion self-deceit is all to do with misconceptions. A misconception that a person becomes favorable toward is self-deceit.

I think many people, especially those with religious leanings, are immediately assuming that the 'self-deceit' I am discussing is actually some sort of failing. While it may be so in many instances, I am discussing the misconceptions that become theologically attached as appendages to a concept which then becomes a lie.

I have tried to keep the language of ideas simple here which is constraining, but I am now going to try to present these is a form of a list, which is probably even more scontraining but it might get my point over more clearly:

1) The concept (abstract) of God is not at issue.

2) Added to this concept are religious ideas that try to put flesh on the skeleton of this concept. Most are primitive ideas that adapt within their social and historical paradigm. These ideas are not falsifiable scientifically They are based on human imagination and opinion and moulded by cultural and social evolution. These opinions often become religious books, which ensures that they last longer and with less change than .

3) History and the progress of the scientific method unravels and is continually unravelling primitive religious ideas, though it does not unravel the concept of a 'god'. Any appendage to the concept of god that has unravelled proves that they were based on misconceptions, self-deceit. History is littered with discarded religious ideologies and the future will see other religions follow this course. Christianity for example in two-thousand years time, if it still exists will be a very different Christianity from the one that is abroad today.

4) Faith is anything that is not falsifiable is at best ureliable. Faith in dogma, the first construct of the religious mind is a form of self-deceit, as it is built.

5) The only reliable part of this process is the concept (abstract) of God. In order for this not to be true some sort of measurable evidence would need to be supplied, as faith is not a reliable source of measurement.

Cheers - HS

5go

3) History and the progress of the scientific method unravels and is continually unravelling primitive religious ideas, though it does not unravel the concept of a 'god'. Any appendage to the concept of god that has unravelled proves that they were based on misconceptions, self-deceit. History is littered with discarded religious ideologies and the future will see other religions follow this course. Christianity for example in two-thousand years time, if it still exists will be a very different Christianity from the one that is abroad today.

Is Christianity anything like it was 1800 years ago.

hillary_step

Superfine,

i predict "burntheships" will be an atheist 2 years from now.

I am with you on this one. I think so too. Burn, It is obvious that you have not researched the issue of parallel Biblical and historic myths. It is a real eye opener, that is, if you wish to have your eyes opened. There are many books available on the subject but one I would particularly recommend is A History of Religious Ideas by Mircea Eliade. It is a two volume set but well worth the discovery. This issue has nothing to do with belief in 'miracles'. Just one newer religion borrowing myths from ancient religions and laying a claim of ownership and all parties deceiving themselves into thinking that they have it right! HS

Self Deceit and Faith.

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