by jesusisgod 149 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Good points Satanus and I understand your views - still not sure if I'm in complete agreement as I see a difference between judgement vs. accountability, but I don't want to drag this thread off on a tangent.
Maybe I'll start a new topic later to discuss it more in-depth
JIG wrote: S4, So you are saying that God, whether Father, Son or Holy Spirit, that a man named Jesus, called Christ, who walked the earth, died on a cross and rose again was imaginary? That the Christian faith is something born in the minds of human beings? Is this what you believe now? Do you then believe that all belief systems originate in the mind of man?
I am saying this: God and Holy Spirit are imaginary, yes, just like Zeus or Thor or Isis. Just another mythical, ancient diety. Now Jesus may have been a real Jewish rabbi, and may even have been crucified. Did he rise from the dead? No, no more than any of the other ancient mythic gods that supposedly did. Jesus is just one of a bunch of ancient dieties that supposedly died a sacrificial death and then were resurrected.
JIG, Do you believe any of these other ancient gods rose from the dead? There is as much proof for them as there is for Jesus having risen - in other words, no proof at all. I tried to make this point in my first post on this thread - you cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible, it's a meaningless exercise, and outside of the Bible, there is no evidence for a supernatural Jesus. Yet all you do is continue to quote scripture as though that meant something. It is meaningless.
For someone to say, "I've got the truth becauseI say I've got the truth" is meaningless - and that in effect is what quoting the Bible is. You're saying the Bible is The Truth because it says it's The Truth. Do you understand what a non-reason that is?
You're damn right I think that the Christian faith is something born in the minds of human beings. Let me ask you this: Do you, JIG, believe that Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism were born in the minds of men or were these great religious systems created by God?
If they are only the products of the minds of men, then certainly the same can be said for Christianity, which is hardly superior to any of these other religions. If, on the other hand, you feel that these are truly religions created by God's hand, than what advantage is there to belief in Christ? Two of these other three religions give Jesus little or no special consideration.
And finally, it is just simply sooo convenient (as well as incredibly intellectually dishonest) to say that if you once believed and no longer believed, then you were never a true, spirit begotten believer to begin with. That's a copout. Maybe what it really means is that you simply continue to deceive yourself that you have some kind of special relationship with an imaginary creator while some of us have been honest enough to recognize such a relationship is just in our minds and have moved away from the need to believe in an imaginary, never seen Big Daddy in the sky who will solve all our problems and make us feel less guilty.
People who feel EXACTLY the same way you do can be found in Judaism, Isalm and Hinduism - that feeling you have is hardly unique to Christianity! If it can be a delusion for what Christians have to see as false religions, it can just as easily be a delusion for Christians.
S4
S4,
I agree to disagree. We can agree on that? :O)
I don't believe the God of the universe can be compared to Zeus or other Greek mythological gods. Have you read the vast differences? I did a report on the virgin birth of Mary years ago. I had to read extensively on other so called virgin births which some non-Christians had used to somehow prove the virgin birth of Mary really stemed from some pagan believe system. But again there were vast differences and couldn't be thrown into the so called virgin birth folder with the rest of them. But we can disagree.
Next I agree that just because something says its true, doesn't always mean its true. Hey, we agree on another thing! Just like the Book of Mormon written by Joseph Smith. He said something to the effect that, "This was the most correct book on earth..." talking about the Book of Mormon. If I took it at face value its the most correct book on earth. BUT if I began to search to see if it holds up to the claims of the most correct book it fails the test. For example it fails on the archeological evidence. All those people groups, money, buildings and more were never found as read in the book of Mormon. You would think that you could at least find some coins that are in the book of mormon, but no such thing exists. The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints also began a DNS search where they tried to prove the geneology that the BOM mentions. But they brushed that under the rug for lack of evidence. However the Bible is much different. Coins can be found from ancient Rome, archeological digs have shown the Bible was accurate and more. Have you read books like "The Case for Christ" Lee Strobel, "Resurrection" by Hank Hanagraff, there are several good books that contain evidence for the Christian faith. But what would you do with all the evidence for the Christian faith? When I first became a Christian I began reading books, lots of them, I had more time then, then I do now. I read and heard lots of arguments against the Bible and the Christian faith. However as I painstakingly searched for answers I found the Bible always ended up true. TO get into all this with you on the internet would such my life away from me but its something you can do, test and see, look at the arguments from both sides, the best arguments from both sides. Is the Bible sound as far as archeology? Science? geology? prophecy? morality? etc, etc.
Robin
sad emo
Sorry Im not shunning you. Did you post something for me? I've been busy.,
Robin
Have you ever seen the pictures of aborted babies? They look just like little babies, little human beings.Robin
What did the babies killed by the God of the Bible look like, Robin?
Like little human beings?
I'd like an answer to these questions, Robin.
Thank you.
Anytime you'd like, Robin.
To all,
There have been what I would think are different ideas and views and even some misundertanding of my posts. I'm going to try and clarify it all in a nutshell here. Somethings I will say as I have said will be in contrast to other beliefs but we can agree to disagree, its ok.
The very first post contains the 10 Commandments. I made it as the "Good Test" or standard for people to judge themselves to see if they are good at heart, good by nature, basically good. I did this for several reasons. One is that most people believe they are good. Ask some of your co-workers, family or friends this question and they will say they are basically a good person and maybe they will add they never murdered anyone. So by their own standards they are good. However if somone, anyone, including myself were to be judged by the law of God, the 10 Commandments, we'd all be guilty of breaking them. Who hasn't lied?? breaking the 9th Commandment? The 10 Commandments are not a list to follow to impress God, gain God's favor, earn God's forgiveness for breaking them to begin with. They are not something we can follow better then another person then showing or saying I am now better then you. Why? Because those 10 laws show us our human sinfulness that we are all under sin and God's wrath. The law cannot save anyone. However God has made a way to receive forgiveness, to be cleansed from sin, to be washed in the blood of the lamb (Messiah) who took the sins of the world upon Himself. Then rose from the dead defeating death and now stands at the right hand of power. This is why the once scared disciples who were confused and in hidding because Messiah died. "How could he have died?" they may have asked themselves. But upon seeing the risen Lord Jesus their attitudes changed. They were no longer fearful, no longer in hidding, but with power and great encouragment proclaimed the risen Lord Jesus, even to the point of death. Now why would anyone with first hand knowledge of something such as Jesus' resurrection die to proclaim this story unless true?
For those Christians here, the law acts as a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ. It stops the sinners mouths from justifying themselves and leaves the whole world guilty before God(Gal 3:24, Romans). The law converts the soul (Ps19:7). In the new covenant God writes His laws upon our hearts (Jer 31).
For those Christians here, the law acts as a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ. It stops the sinners mouths from justifying themselves and leaves the whole world guilty before God(Gal 3:24, Romans).
Gal.3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
Can you show me where you get ''the whole world is guilty before god'' from the above scripture that you quoted?
I don't see it.
Romans 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Neither in Romans. All I see is that we are justified freely by his grace and by faith.
Can you show me anywhere in the New Testament, where Jesus HIMSELF states that we are all deserving of hell?
I can't find that scripture either. Thanks.
I read and heard lots of arguments against the Bible and the Christian faith. However as I painstakingly searched for answers I found the Bible always ended up true.
I also did the same but came to a different conclusion, I fond the bible to be scientifically and historically inaccurate and did not always contained good morals
I like to ask you if you know who decided that the collection of books called the bible was the word of god?
One is that most people believe they are good. Ask some of your co-workers, family or friends this question and they will say they are basically a good person and maybe they will add they never murdered anyone. So by their own standards they are good. However if someone, anyone, including myself were to be judged by the law of God, the 10 Commandments, we'd all be guilty of breaking them.
I like it when Christians say things like that, " by their own standards". When you read the bible you make a judgment and say to yourself " hey these are good standards" so by your own standards you are making a judgment.
Again..
"Concerning jesus, the gospel of john presents some problems as to his absolute truthfulness. Chapter seven has him saying that he will not go to the festival, but then, going secretly. He lied to his own family. Still absolutely good?"
S
JIG...we are all under sin and God's wrath. The law cannot save anyone. However God has made a way to receive forgiveness, to be cleansed from sin, to be washed in the blood of the lamb (Messiah) who took the sins of the world upon Himself.
What a Great Deal ! Unless you were one of the billions of A&E's children who had to 'pay' for the 'sins' of A & E !
Have you ever seen the pictures of aborted babies? They look just like little babies, little human beings.Robin
What did the babies killed by the God of the Bible look like, Robin?
Like little human beings? ~ nvrgnbk
I'd like an answer to these questions, Robin.
Thank you. ~ nvrgnbk
Anytime you'd like, Robin. ~ nvrgnbkWell, JIG, it sounds like you're fixin' to bug out of this conversation. Are you ? I tried to get you to think and talk about some of the really awful gory bloodletting your god wrote about in His autobiography. Apparently, those deaths are too upsetting (understandable) to you ...or it's not even significant enough to discuss ? I'll bet it meant a lot to the folks being murdered by your god. But, I like nvrgnbk's very simple, sharp, pointed question, so much, I'll repeat it:
RabbitWhat did the babies killed by the God of the Bible look like, Robin?
Like little human beings? ~ nvrgnbk
