by kwr 85 Replies latest watchtower scandals
I have to come back and read this whole thread but for now I have to say I agree somewhat with HappyDad.
Hi rosalee. I think the point is that this guy is responsible for his actions but the preceeding events of his life may have pre-determined the tragic event that unfolded. It's a case of what if.
See ya later, I gotta go feed the wild beasts.
BFD
ronin ... I see your side but does that mean that every 17 y/o who gets a setback in his/her life can justify their bad behaviour on (whatever) and be exhonorated? Do you see where I'm coming from? A 17 y/o does know right from wrong ... even the law says so. Almost like saying where schools practise corporal punishment ... when the kids grow up they beat up everyone they want and blame the school system.
People have to quit blaming everyone and everything for their own bad actions.
Rosalee:
I am not justifying his actions. What I am trying to point out is that while some of us (I was DF years ago at 18 and then reinstated years later) have the emotional and spiritual strength to deal with setbacks in our lives, others may be weak in those areas.
You know from hearing life experiences from persons that many resort to drugs, alcohol, self abuse, etc because they were not emotionally or mentally strong to deal with their life problems.
It seems to me that this young man (and if you saw his pic in the paper) was truly affected by being DF and shunned and handled it so terribly to the point of manslaughter and then still did not get himself together to stop drinking.
I stick to my point that the borg's DF and shunning rules have hurt too many persons in too many ways emotionally, mentally, and physically and this happened to this young man to the detriment of many persons losing their lives at his hands behind the wheel of a vehicle.
However, I am not making excuses for him but we must understand the domino effect the borgs' actions on him for his supposed (sin) somehow contributed to his making wrong life choices.
Ronin1
People have to quit blaming everyone and everything for their own bad actions.
No one is missing the point that this young man deserves to be punished for his actions but considering his background a little empathy can't hurt.
Also Rosalee you seem to do the same thing: blame others for your rudeness (bad actions).
I find it funny that you are shocked and hurt when like is returned to you.
ronin1 .. you mention the domino effect. OK ... let's go there. Who started the effect?
Did the boy get df'd for nothing ... making the WTS responsible for the first step? NO. The boy started the effect by having sex before marriage.
Step 2 ... he obviously did not show repentance and was thus df'd.
Step 3 .. if he wanted back in he could have taken steps to get reinstated ... he knows that too. 17 y/o's are a lot smarter than they often portray themselves. They know it looks better for themselves to feign ignorance.
Step 4 .. instead of helping himself, he decided to drink and drive.
Now you and so many here see this as the societies fault. Have I missed anything? Don't think so.
p.s. ... this young man is now 29 years old. Just about time he woke up and smelled the coffee.
Rosalee:
Let me first respond to your statements:
"Did the boy get df'd for nothing ... making the WTS responsible for the first step? NO. The boy started the effect by having sex before marriage."- No one said he did not take the first step by having sexual relations outside of marriage.
Step 2 ... he obviously did not show repentance and was thus df'd. - How do you know he was not repentant? Even though he was found guilty and sentenced- none of us knows what is in the heart of an individual. Only God knows. (Also, my daughter was in the same situation when she was 14 years old. I sat with her in the committee meeting and she showed repentence. But because I was a single parent and they were all hypcritical elders, they decided to make her an example and showed her no mercy. We even appealed and the elders (another set of hypocrites) denied our appeal-again they showed no mercy. And I knew my daughter was repentent. After that she slowly but surely left the organization because she saw that the love of God was not in these elders or many persons). So you cannot say if this young man was repentant- actually to be more frank with you- you have no right to come to that conclusion if you do not personally know this young man).
Step 3 .. if he wanted back in he could have taken steps to get reinstated ... he knows that too. 17 y/o's are a lot smarter than they often portray themselves. They know it looks better for themselves to feign ignorance. - Where do you get off being so judgemental? Do you know what issues or situations may have caused him not to work towards getting reinstated? Do you know if he did try to get reinstated?
Step 4 .. instead of helping himself, he decided to drink and drive. - If a person drinks, helping himself is not an option. That person must get help from others.
Now you and so many here see this as the societies fault. Have I missed anything? Don't think so. -No one is saying this is all the borg's fault. But clearly their rules have contributed to negative actions by many persons and this fact cannot be denied.
Ronin1
ronin:
Step 1 ... started by boy. That's how dominoes start :)
Step 2 ... I stand by the JC committee. They are imperfect but from all I've seen they always try to be fair. I mentioned already that some fall through the cracks and they have the right to appeal and/or seek reinstatement.
Step 3 ... it was not mentioned that he sought reinstatement so one may conclude that unless it is said to be so .. he didn't try.
Step 4 ... you are positively WRONG!!! A person who drinks does so of his own free will. He stands alone and must stop of his own free will. He may get help from others but it is his responsibility to act!
The rules of the society are scripturally based ... so you are in fact blaming Jehovah.
So if I decide to take hard drugs ... for whatever reason ... I can come here crying that it is the fault of the society?
Where is the logic?
Many of us here had twisted miserable childhoods, yet we didn't all turn out to be alcoholics, it was this young mans choice to drown his sorrows with the bottle. He had a choice on how to carry on with his life, how many on here were df'd, yet managed to pick up the pieces and try to be happy? It's not easy, but you are here reading my words, you found your way here after or maybe during the cult times, looking for a way to heal. That said, the blame falls squarely on his shoulders, no one else is to blame. The judge should have given him 37 years the first time around. I feel sorry for him, I can empathize with him, but once again he made the choice to get drunk, get behind the wheel, beacuse of his choice their are 4 people 6 feet under.
rosalee, you know that I love. I wish you could see what is so obvious.
Did the boy get df'd for nothing ... making the WTS responsible for the first step?
Who are they (WTS) to judge? You know the scriptures better than I do.
I stand by the JC committee. They are imperfect but from all I've seen they always try to be fair. I mentioned already that some fall through the cracks and they have the right to appeal and/or seek reinstatement.
I think that if the question of immorality were put before the congregation there would have been a different outcome. The r&f are imperfect too so what's the difference?
Step 3 ... it was not mentioned
So, we don't know.
you are positively WRONG!!! A person who drinks does so of his own free will. He stands alone and must stop of his own free will. He may get help from others but it is his responsibility to act!
What makes you so sure? Addiction is a powerful affliction.
Rosalee, I'm still willing to study the bible with you. All we need is a bible and a prayer. Think about it.
BFD
Rosalee:
I hate to say this, but it seems to me most of your statements show a sign of not being in tune with what has been happening in the organization over the past years and currently:
For example:
Step 1 ... started by boy. That's how dominoes start :) "" Yes, he committed an offense, but he did not have to be disfellowshiped. My brother was an elder and many times elders can show compassion and mercy if they want".They certainly have let the child molesters stay in the congregations with DF them.
Step 2 ... I stand by the JC committee. They are imperfect but from all I've seen they always try to be fair. I mentioned already that some fall through the cracks and they have the right to appeal and/or seek reinstatement. " You obviously know nothing truly about the elder bodies in the organization or what truly goes on in a committe meeting. If you did, you could not make that statement with a clear or clean conscience:" (As in the case of my daughter)".
Step 3 ... it was not mentioned that he sought reinstatement so one may conclude that unless it is said to be so .. he didn't try. -Since it was not mentioned, no one can conclude whether he sought reinstatement or not.
Step 4 ... you are positively WRONG!!! A person who drinks does so of his own free will. He stands alone and must stop of his own free will. He may get help from others but it is his responsibility to act! This is true but he needs repeated and continued help from others and we really do not know the situation whether this was the case. You need to stop being so judgemental. Who made you Christ the Judge?
The rules of the society are scripturally based ... so you are in fact blaming Jehovah. - Either you have been living in a time warp or you are completely in denial. There are so many rules by the society THAT ARE NOT SCRIPTUALLY BASED that we have stopped counting. Where have you been all these years within the society? Have you not studied and read their literature and read many of their rules to know that many are made up and not based on scripture but on personal preferences and cult control tactics?
So if I decide to take hard drugs ... for whatever reason ... I can come here crying that it is the fault of the society? - By this statement you are being judgemental, unreasonable and unforgiving and you need to check yourself out. Yes, do not condone what this young man did but where on earth is your understanding and compassion? Even Christ Jesus had compassion and understanding for those that sinned? What is wrong with you?
Where is the logic? -WHERE IS YOUR LOGIC?
P.S.- Would anyone else on this post subject like to respond to my or Rosalee's statements?
Ronin
