What if you're missing the purpose?

by journey-on 161 Replies latest jw friends

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    journey-on,

    I'm glad you started this thread. The points you are making I have often tried to make, probably in too obscure a way.

    I believe our "separate self," "individual ego," call it as you like, to be a "fiction of the mind," basically a construct of language. But a very necessary one in the general (language-based) structure of mankind. To quote again from Lacan's French formula, les non-dupes errent ("the non-dupe err") -- homonymous in French to les noms du Père, "the names of the Father," by which Lacan pointed to the necessary "Other" referent of the linguistic-symbolic "contract" which makes us what we are. More simply put, without a dose of self-delusion we cannot be "selves" and function socially as such.

    "Mystical extasis," in the sense of stepping out of this artificial self, is both an impossibility (in the literal sense of self-delusion) and an evidence (inasmuch as the self itself is self-delusion). I regard it, as I have often said, as a pharmakon -- both a remedy and a poison. Vital to those who need it when they do need it, deadly to those who don't need it.

    Let me describe human life with all its social, economical, political, ideological, emotional aspects as a game. If you (as a "separate self," fictional as this is) are neither interested in winning nor afraid of losing, because you always think (and rightly so!) that "it's just a game," you will soon get bored and ruin the fun of it for yourself and others. Otoh, if you are paralysed with fear of losing, or if your desire to win otherwise spoils the game, you will need to be reminded that "it's just a game". But don't jump to the conclusion that every player, always, needs the same reminder.

    As many have found, there is a hidden "exit door" in the depth of anxiety, and hopefully anyone who gets there will find it. At this point the testimonies of those who have found it before may be useful. But it is neither something to be proud of nor something to preach to those who are simply enjoying the game, successfully coping with their desire and fears, without feeling the need to question their "self". Not anymore than you would want to share your remedy, no matter how helpful it was to you, to people who are not sick as you were/are (or convince them that they are necessarily sick as you are/were and just don't realise it).

    Perhaps this will upset many, but I think Paul's illustration of the body and members offers one of the best perspectives on this issue. In Pauline terms we are "in Christ" (more and less than our individual selves) but at the same time we are different, with separate functions, roles and destinies, the difference of which is useful to all. "Mystical witnesses" are helpful to the body (and, maybe, to any of its members potentially) provided they do not insist that everyone becomes like them.

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    Narkissos

    Perhaps this will upset many, but I think Paul's illustration of the body and members offers one of the best perspectives on this issue. In Pauline terms we are "in Christ" (more and less than our individual selves) but at the same time we are different, with separate functions, roles and destinies, the difference of which is useful to all. "Mystical witnesses" are helpful to the body (and, maybe, to any of its members potentially) provided they do not insist that everyone becomes like them.

    I just reread 1 Cor. 12: 12 - 27 (I think that's where you referenced) and indeed when you read this in the spirit of this discussion, you can see exactly what you are talking about.

    That's what I love about this board. So many individual unique expressions of the whole. Thank you all for taking the time and energy to respond to this post.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Let me describe human life with all its social, economical, political, ideological, emotional aspects as a game. If you (as a "separate self," fictional as this is) are neither interested in winning nor afraid of losing, because you always think (and rightly so!) that "it's just a game," you will soon get bored and ruin the fun of it for yourself and others. Otoh, if you are paralysed with fear of losing, or if your desire to win otherwise spoils the game, you will need to be reminded that "it's just a game". But don't jump to the conclusion that every player, always, needs the same reminder.

    Wow, Narkissos, you have just summed up the exact way I have been feeling for the last few months. I've spent the last year and a half meditating, trying to find awareness of the true nature of reality. In a way, this has been really great because I no longer get paralysed with fear of losing things that don't really matter much (like family and old friends that never cared as much about me as I did them). I seem to have lost my ego drive to win the "game", I am no longer yanked around on an emotional rollercoaster ride due to believing in other people's social, economical, political, or religious ideologies. That is all great and a welcome relief. For the first time in 10 years, I have been able to give up anti-depresssants and anti-anxiety medication. I credit meditation with that. Now, though, I feel I am lacking in motivation to accomplish anything. I've lost the urgency, "the sky is falling" mentality of JW's and Armageddon looming over my head. I DO feel bored and want to ruin the fun of the game for others! (My apologies to Journey-on)

    I have no desire to get "back in the game" and fully engage with life either. What's the point? It almost feels like depression but not quite. More like I see clearly and calmly and realize that the end of the game is the same no matter how we play it, so what's the point in worrying about anything or even caring about anything overly much? Have you read "Finite and Infinite Games: A vision of life as play and possibility" by James P Carse? Much of what you were just saying reminded me of this book given to me by my counselor/teacher.

    Any of you wise people out there got any suggestions for curing this kind of low grade melancholy and lack of ambition?

    Cog

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Any of you wise people out there got any suggestions for curing this kind of low grade melancholy and lack of ambition?

    OMG!

    Great points Narkissos and cog dis!

    I don't feel depressed, but rather overwhelmed by the deep sense of futulity.

    Nothing really matters? Does it?

  • moshe
    moshe

    It appears that a lot of different religions like this story, even Muslims. A Google search shows hundreds of variations of this story. This type of question and answer search is a dead end, as the premise it is based upon is flawed to begin with. Garbage in = garbage out. You might as well ask why ants can't do the polka.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Hey nvrgnbk

    I'm going to play my own devil's advocate here and answer my own question with a story my counselor told me when I asked him "what's the point of it all, what does anything matter?"

    There was a man walking on the beach and he came upon an old man picking up washed-up starfish that were drying up and dying. He was throwing them back into the water. The young man asked the old man, "why are you bothering with that? There are thousands of them. You can't possibly throw them all back in. What's the point? What does it matter in the end?" The old man picked up another starfish and threw it in the water. "It matters to that one." he said.

    My counselor is also an atheist, who meditates and studies buddhist philosophy. He says his life practice, what gives his life right now meaning and makes it worthwhile, is that he helps to relieve the suffering of others right now, in whatever way he can, volunteering etc. I asked him what did it matter in the long run, all the people you help are just going to die anyway, eventually, and a million more will pop up to replace them. He said it didn't matter in the long run, but it matters right now to the person you are with. Then he told me that story.

    I guess the point of it all, is just to do whatever one can, within one's own sphere of influence, whatever that may be, to try to relieve one's own suffering and the suffering of others. However, while I "know" that is true, and do try to do that whenever I can, I still often have these feelings of futility and existential angst. I probably am a nicer person now and help more people now than I ever did as a JW. But I felt better as a JW because I was happy in my delusion that I was going to live forever and God was going to make the world all better some day. Somedays, I just think reality kind of sucks and understand why most people in the world choose belief in a Creator. Because it feels better!

    Anybody else ever feel like that? Come on, I know it can't be just me and nvrgnbck. Any of you other atheists out there willing to "confess" feelings of futility?

    Cog

  • changeling
    changeling

    nvrbnbk: I don't agree that nothing really matters. What matters to you is what matters. And what matters to you does not have to be dictated or approved by anyone else.

    Taking god out of the equation made me feel more empowered and therefore more purposefull in everything I do, because now it's solely up to me. That's not futility, it's freedom.

    changeling

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Can you be more specific, Moshe? Which story and which question are you referring to? Life being a game? Or journey-on's earlier question about duality and ego and whether they are "meant to be"? Also, why is the question flawed? Please give some examples. Cog

  • changeling
    changeling

    I was told all my life that this life was not the real one. To "keep my eye on the prize". That it did not matter that things "sucked" now, all would be well in the new system.

    I watched my parents grow old and sick. I see true futility in their attempts to "work out their salvation" while turning their backs on family and experiences that could enrich and enhance their golden years.

    My giving up the concept of god and an eternal reward allows me to enjoy life as I never had before. I does not make me sad. It makes me feel real and complete.

    changeling

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Good point, Changeling. Yes, it is a kind of freedom to decide your own purpose in life and not have it dictated to by others. I experience that freedom and it is a good feeling. What comes with the feeling, which is a downside, is that "IT IS ALL UP TO ME!". I often feel very alone and disconnected from others and community because of this. Tell me how do you cope with the flipside of this?

    Cog

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