Is the USA Government Imperialistic? Is this what leads the invasion of Ira

by frankiespeakin 113 Replies latest social current

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    BA,

    Wanna bad mouth the country you live in? Then perhaps you should consider the alternative- move to the third world and in time you'll find enough to complain about there as well.

    This "world" ain't perfect- it is what it is.

    Why should I have to live in a counrty that is third world before I can critisize the US governmental policies? And your right the world ain't perfect, what is, is, what is, and so recognition of the fact that being born in a country does not give that country ownership of you or anybody else, is what is, anything else is a distortion of facts. Nor does the fact that a particular government claims ownership of a piece of land imply they legitimately have ownership. One must remember governments are only a very recent developement in the evolution of humans, who knows how long they will remain? And if thier existance was more benificial or harmful to life on this planet or not in the long run.

    Rs' hubby,

    Frankie Is this the same position that you held as a JW?

    That may be true to some extent, but just because it may be similar doesn't not automatically mean it should be rejected. Why should a person who rejects the JWs as a cult automatically become a patriotic person who goes along with every thing the country he lives in does? If something is evil and cruel in a certain policy of government, does the rejection of the JW cult religion mean one now accept and condones what ever a government does thus becoming a blind patriot?

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Frankie,

    Why should I have to live in a counrty(sic) that is third world before I can critisize(sic) the US governmental policies?

    Didn't state that- stated that you are presently guilty of those policies by way of benefit and association. As long as you benefit from those policies, you are being hypocritical by denouncing them without showing an understanding of why those policies exist in the first place- which is to allow you the standard of living you have become accustomed to. Get it? Biting the hand that feeds you?

    And your(sic) right the world ain't perfect, what is, is, what is, and so recognition of the fact that being born in a country does not give that country ownership of you or anybody else, is what is, anything else is a distortion of facts. Nor does the fact that a particular government claims ownership of a piece of land imply they legitimately have ownership.

    That is a re-statement of what I already stated: "Some here are so quick to point out (correctly) that the US, or any other government has no moral right to claim lands, and enforce rules, wage wars, etc."However, this is the real world, not the hypothetical, that we live in. Your claim to own a house or car is based on the real world, why this dichotomy of thought concerning the country you live in?

    One must remember governments are only a very recent developement in the evolution of humans,

    That one would be you, as I have read nothing believable that supports those claims.

    who knows how long they will remain? And if thier(sic) existance was more benificial(sic) or harmful to life on this planet or not in the long run.

    Agreed on that one.

    BA

  • restrangled
    restrangled

    Frankie Is this the same position that you held as a JW?

    That may be true to some extent, but just because it may be similar doesn't not automatically mean it should be rejected. Why should a person who rejects the JWs as a cult automatically become a patriotic person who goes along with every thing the country he lives in does? If something is evil and cruel in a certain policy of government, does the rejection of the JW cult religion mean one now accept and condones what ever a government does thus becoming a blind patriot?

    Frankie I think part of the reason that I am confused is that you are using definitions to words that seem to contradict Webster's dictionary.

    Main Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism
    Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
    Function: noun
    : love for or devotion to one's country

    This defintion is pretty straight forward. Politics and government are not even mentioned.

    In your discussions you make very broad and sweeping statements about what you believe patriotism is...i.e. you assume that if someone shows patriotism, then they automatically agree with every thing their government does.

    I think the definitions of words and concepts that you picked up along the way by virtue of the WTS should be challenged, because they bare no resemblence to those words and concepts found in the dictionary.

    No disrespect intended.

  • Jourles
    Jourles

    Justice said something about ---

    and cutting peoples heads off on TV.

    Why is this so wrong? If you steal, rape, murder, etc., you know what the punishment will be. One of the greatest allies to the USA practices this form of punishment. Why doesn't the USA reprimand Saudi Arabia for this act? We have the death penalty here in the USA as well. Does it matter how the form of punishment is carried out? Personally, I would much rather have my head lopped off over getting fried in the electric chair. Does it matter if it is aired on tv? SA does it out in public after prayers. Again, the USA just looks the other way -- and maybe you should too if you don't agree with your government's policies.

    Saudi executioner speaking about his job

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Rs,

    Frankie I think part of the reason that I am confused is that you are using definitions to words that seem to contradict Webster's dictionary.

    Main Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism
    Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
    Function: noun
    : love for or devotion to one's country

    This defintion is pretty straight forward. Politics and government are not even mentioned.

    Patriotism comes in many degrees from mild to extreme. Why use a short abriviated definition, that leads to confusion, here is a more comprehensive one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

    Patriotism has ethical connotations: it implies that the 'fatherland' (however defined) is a moral standard or moral value in itself. The expression my country right or wrong - perhaps a misquotation of the American naval officer Stephen Decatur, but also attributed to Carl Schurz - is the extreme form of this belief. Patriotism also implies that the individual should place the interests of the nation above their personal and group interests. In wartime, the sacrifice may extend to their own life. Death in battle for the fatherland is the archetype of extreme patriotism.

    Contents

    [ hide ]

    Supporters of patriotism in ethics regard it as a virtue. In his influential article "Is patriotism a virtue?" (1984), the philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre notes that most contemporary conceptions of morality insist on a blindness to accidental traits like local origin and therefore reject patriotic selectivity. MacIntyre constructs an alternative conception of morality, that he claims would be compatible with patriotism. Charles Blattberg, in his book From Pluralist to Patriotic Politics (2000), has developed a similar conception of patriotism.

    A problem with treating patriotism as a virtue is that patriotisms often conflict. Soldiers of both sides in a war may feel equally patriotic, creating an ethical paradox. (If patriotism is a virtue, then the enemy is virtuous, so why try to kill them?)

    Within nations, politicians may appeal to patriotic emotions in attacking their opponents, implicitly or explicitly accusing them of betraying the country. Minorities may reject a patriotic loyalty and pride, which the majority finds unproblematic. They may feel excluded from the political community, and see no reason to be proud of it. The Australian political conflict about the Black arm band theory of history is an example. Conservative Prime Minister John Howard, who would undoubtedly describe himself as an Australian patriot, said of it in 1996:

    The 'black armband' view of our history reflects a belief that most Australian history since 1788 has been little more than a disgraceful story of imperialism, exploitation, racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination.

    In the United States, patriotic history has been criticised for de-emphasising the post-Colombian depopulation, the Atlantic slave trade, the population expulsions and the wars of conquest against Native Americans.

    Patriotism is often portrayed as a more positive alternative to nationalism, which sometimes carries negative connotations. Some authors such as Morris Janowitz, Daniel Bar-Tal, or L. Snyder argue that patriotism is distinguished from nationalism by its lack of aggression or hatred for others, its defensiveness, and positive community building. Others, such as Michael Billig or Jean Bethke Elshtain argue that the difference is difficult to discern, and relies largely on the attitude of the labeller. [2]

  • restrangled
    restrangled

    Patriotism comes in many degrees from mild to extreme. Why use a short abriviated definition, that leads to confusion, here is a more comprehensive one:

    I think that the word patriotism, like many words, is being misused to mean something else. Patriotism to an extreme maybe isn't patriotism, but rather fanatacism. I used a respected dictionary, you are using wikipedia.

    I appreciate your reply.

    r's hubby

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Rs',

    If you use patriotism's more noble shade of meaning and not the extreme form(such as my country right or wrong), then a person can openly critisize the government that controls the land of his birth, and still be patriotic, being that his love for the people and government motivates him to call a spade a spade, and not minimize bad conduct or bad policies of his country's people or government, in hopes that they will change instead of going a long with what ever is popular.

    That being the case maybe the draft card burners, the protestors marchers and even the flag burners are more patriotic in this benign sense, then the brain dead patriot who just blindly accept and sides with what ever the government dishes out reguardless of whether they are right or horribly wrong.

    A person may be more patriotic in the good sense, if he opposes his governments wrong course in huge spending of tax dollars for military build up in order to gain and keep its superpower status, and demand that they use the money to provide more social services to help raise the standard of living for the poor, so that all can get the medical aid when needed, instead of doing what big business want and expanding the US domination so that the extremely rich can can get richer at the expense of the poor.

  • restrangled
    restrangled
    If you use patriotism's more noble shade of meaning and not the extreme form(such as my country right or wrong), then a person can openly critisize the government that controls the land of his birth, and still be patriotic, being that his love for the people and government motivates him to call a spade a spade, and not minimize bad conduct or bad policies of his country's people or government, in hopes that they will change instead of going a long with what ever is popular.

    100% agreed.

    That being the case maybe the draft card burners, the protestors marchers and even the flag burners are more patriotic in this benign sense, then the brain dead patriot who just blindly accept and sides with what ever the government dishes out reguardless of whether they are right or horribly wrong.

    95% disagree. Its OK to protest. Burning draft cards and burning flags is not the same as protesting. Protesting is legal and constitutional. Burning draft cards and burning flags is illegal and cowardly. I suspect that those burning draft cards and flags are cowards. My mother pleaded with my older brother to go to Canada during Vietnam, he would not. Even though he opposed the war, he felt an obligation as an American to go. He felt that his skipping out, only meant someone else would have to take his spot. He was saving his own skin and sentencing another. You go out and protest to your hearts content, but if you are called, then you serve.

    A person may be more patriotic in the good sense, if he opposes his governments wrong course in huge spending of tax dollars for military build up in order to gain and keep its superpower status, and demand that they use the money to provide more social services to help raise the standard of living for the poor, so that all can get the medical aid when needed, instead of doing what big business want and expanding the US domination so that the extremely rich can can get richer at the expense of the poor.

    I would absolutely consider the person you describe in the above scenario a patriot. I would drop the word "more" though.

    r's hubby

  • Jourles
    Jourles
    burning flags is illegal

    RS, are you sure about that? As far as I recall, I can still burn a flag of any country that I please, including the US flag. If I did it in public, the police couldn't do anything about it, but I would probably get my ass kicked by a group of gung-ho, my-country-right-or-wrong, folk.

  • restrangled
    restrangled
    If I did it in public, the police couldn't do anything about it, but I would probably get my ass kicked by a group of gung-ho, my-country-right-or-wrong, folk.

    You'd probably get your ass kicked for being a disrespectful, attention seeker whose sole motivation was to show off and show how "special" they were, while accomplishing absolutely nothing.

    r's hubby

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