If Jehovah isn't the true God then who is?

by unbaptized 91 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jgnat
    jgnat
    What do YOU think; THEY wrote the name- AND also spoke Hebrew; since we weren't there the rest is guesswork- EXCEPT that neither Christ nor his apostles & apostles babbled the Trinity- that started a century after Christ had been resurrected- and it caused bitter disputes since it contradicted what Christ & scripture revealed.

    Jesus did not write ANY epistles. He spoke all his sermons in the language of the day. All we have today is transcriptions from his disciples. Hence, no Hebrew. Hence, Jesus never spoke "Jehovah" aloud.

    Before we get down to doctrine, let's get the source straight. The OLDEST early Christian manuscripts DID NOT use "Jehovah" in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Why didn't the WTBTS use those?

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    Hello unbaptised.

    I will start at the common ground you and I share. We do believe in the infallibility of the Bible. So I will answer your question using the Bible as the authority on the subject.

    The God you have known, the God of the Watchtower as Jehovah is only a pale veiled version of the YHWH of Scripture. In Hebrew name=nature. God's name is His nature. He has many aspects to His nature, thus He has many names;

    ELOHIM is the first name for God found in the Bible, and it's used throughout the Old Testament over 2,300 times. Elohim comes from the Hebrew root meaning "strength" or "power", and has the unusual characteristic of being plural in form. In Genesis 1:1, we read, "In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth."

    Elohim is combined with other words to describe certain characteristics of God; Some examples: Elohay Kedem - God of the Beginning: (Deuteronomy 33:27). Elohay Mishpat - God Of Justice: (Isaiah 30:18). Elohay Selichot - God Of Forgiveness: (Nehemiah 9:17). Elohay Marom - God Of Heights: (Micah 6:6). Elohay Mikarov - God Who Is Near: (Jeremiah 23:23). Elohay Mauzi - God Of My Strength: (Psalm 43:2). Elohay Tehilati - God Of My Praise: (Psalm 109:1). Elohay Yishi - God Of My Salvation: (Psalm 18:47, 25:5). Elohim Kedoshim - Holy God: (Leviticus 19:2, Joshua 24:19). Elohim Chaiyim - Living God: (Jeremiah 10:10). Elohay Elohim - God Of Gods: (Deuteronomy 10:17).

    "EL" is another name used for God in the Bible, showing up about 200 times in the Old Testament. El is the simple form arising from Elohim, and is combined with other words for descriptive emphasis of God's nature.

    El HaNe'eman - The Faithful God: (Deuteronomy 7:9). El HaGadol - The Great God: (Deuteronomy 10:17). El HaKadosh - The Holy God: (Isaiah 5:16). El Yisrael - The God Of Israel: (Psalm 68:35). El HaShamayim - The God Of The Heavens: (Psalm 136:26). El De'ot - The God Of Knowledge: (1 Samuel 2:3). El Emet - The God Of Truth: (Psalm 31:6). El Yeshuati - The God Of My Salvation: (Isaiah 12:2). El Elyon - The Most High God: (Genesis 14:18). Immanu El - God Is With Us: (Isaiah 7:14). El Olam - The God Of Eternity (Genesis 21:33). El Echad - The One God: (Malachi 2:10). "ELAH" is another name for God, used about 70 times in the Old Testament. Again, when combined with other words, we see different attributes of God. Some examples: Elah Yerush'lem - God of Jerusalem: (Ezra 7:19). Elah Yisrael - God of Israel: (Ezra 5:1). Elah Sh'maya - God of Heaven: (Ezra 7:23). Elah Sh'maya V'Arah - God of Heaven and Earth: (Ezra 5:11).

    YHVH declares God's absolute being - the source of everything, without beginning and without end. "I Am Who I Am" Here are some examples of YHVH used in scripture: YHVH Elohim - LORD God: (Genesis 2:4). YHVH M'kadesh - The LORD Who Makes Holy: (Ezekiel 37:28). YHVH Yireh - The LORD Who Sees/provides: (Genesis 22:14). YHVH Nissi - The LORD My Banner: (Exodus 17:15). YHVH Shalom - The LORD Of Peace: (Judges 6:24). YHVH Tzidkaynu - The LORD Our Righteousness: (Jeremiah 33:16). YHVH O'saynu - The LORD our Maker: (Psalm 95:6).

    Jesus shares the same attributes as YHVH and clearly claims to be YHVH. In John 8:56-9, Jesus presents himself as the "I AM."

    Those Jewish leaders understood that Jesus was claiming to be YHVH and tried to kill him for it.

    soooooooo...according to the Bible the WT has recreated the authentic YHWH and Yeshua. Jehovah is the true God, however there is so much more to Him that the WT has ever taught or believed. He does not need an organization of self righteous men to rule His sheep because He is. His son is not a recycled angel either but the great YHWH manifested as Yeshua.

  • Mad
    Mad

    Very good, Newbie! I'll give my 5 cents after each of yer questions! You wrote: Here are just a few questions for you Mr. Mad:


    1- Where do you find the "scriptural principle", to post in writing, 11 end of the world predictions? (None of which came true by the way). None; human stupidity!
    2- Where is the "scriptural principle" that supports disfellowshipping and shunning a christian for disagreeing with current WT teachings? None; human stupidity!


    3- Where was the "scriptural principle" ever said that Organ Transplants were unacceptable for Christians and viewed as "cannibalism" as the society taught? None; human stupidity!


    4- Where was the "scriptural principle" for not allowing Vaccinations for 21 years? None; human stupidity!


    5- Please show me the "scriptural principle" that disallowed "Alternative Service" for 50 years. Please comment on why tens of thousands of brothers had to go to prison for such a policy that was finally made a conscience matter, without any apologies? None; human stupidity- and the 'Lemming Mentality' of those that blindly follow men!


    6- Please show us the scriptural principle that supports today's WT policies prohibiting blood transfusions completely, allowing certain blood fractions, not allowing other smaller more vital fractions, not storing your own blood (since mosaic law was done away with), allowing JW's to dip into the world's blood supply by accepting fractions, but not be allowed to put back into that very same supply they can take from? I'm not even sure of the 'current policy'! I simply will not ever take anything with blood- obeying the command of Holy Spirit!


    7- Please show us the scriptural principle where those that simply walk away from the WT faith, without sinning, have to be shunned and labeled? None; human stupidity!


    This will just get you started. Let's see how good you are. Looking forward to your detailed replies! Agape, Mad

  • Mad
    Mad

    Just a question and a suggestion for a start:

    Do you think the New Testament texts were accurately transmitted? (yes or no, why and how). Yes, so many copies were carefully made , spreading to different lands, that additions are quickly seen- since they were only in a few in a certain area. Scholars also have many techniques to discern additions- such as differences in inks & hand-writing.

    Read Romans chapter 10 in any Bible except the NWT; try to understand what point Paul is trying to make, and how the quotation of Joel in v. 13 serves his argument. When you get it, switch to the NWT and see what happens.What did you see "excercis faith" instead of "believe"? "Jehovah" instead of "LORD"? It seems the same to me- just easier to understand.

    Mad

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Do you think the New Testament texts were accurately transmitted? (yes or no, why and how). Yes, so many copies were carefully made , spreading to different lands, that additions are quickly seen- since they were only in a few in a certain area. Scholars also have many techniques to discern additions- such as differences in inks & hand-writing.

    Good boy.

    Now explain to me why the NW translators assume that all copies in all areas were corrupt, as regards the divine name? that none of them represents the original text, since all use kurios, never Yhwh?

    Read Romans chapter 10 in any Bible except the NWT; try to understand what point Paul is trying to make, and how the quotation of Joel in v. 13 serves his argument. When you get it, switch to the NWT and see what happens.What did you see "excercis faith" instead of "believe"? "Jehovah" instead of "LORD"? It seems the same to me- just easier to understand.

    Hmm.. my point was about "Jehovah".

    But here you didn't play the game. Let's break it down. First tell me what function v. 13 (the quotation of Joel) plays in the whole argument. Notice it is introduced by gar, "for, because".

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    You are truly to be commended Mad! I read your replies to my questions. Out of the thousands of JW's that have been presented with these, only TWO have answered correctly. THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THESE ANYWHERE.

    You are on the right road THEN. Stay open-minded and respectful for as long as this process takes you.

    The next question then is; what do these obvioulsy mistaken policies say about the source of such policies?

    Would the Grand Creator of the Universe choose to use such an organization that has made continuous mistakes as His One and ONLY group of people on earth today?

    Would it be reasonable for thinking persons to question such an organization based on that organization's history as well as current list of mistaken views?

    I will start a new thread later on for yourself and any other current JW's that wish to express themselves.

    Your open-minded spirit is a welcomed change from most JW's that come here. Not that you are conceding anything at this time, I acknowledge that. But an open, honest mind is the only mind that will find what the real truth is... whatever that may be...

    I'll get back in a few hours.

    All the best,

    Vinny

  • Mad
    Mad

    Jgnet wrote:"Jesus did not write ANY epistles. He spoke all his sermons in the language of the day. All we have today is transcriptions from his disciples. Hence, no Hebrew. Hence, Jesus never spoke "Jehovah" aloud." The Jews, even though speaking the language of whatever land they live in-as tody- in general, still sopke Hebrew. When Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah at the temple, it was likely in Hebrew- and to think HE wouldn't honor nor use the Name of his God & Father is ludicrous. Also, to think Jesus- who condemned their ridiculous traditions- would follow them by NOT using the Name- is EQUALLY so!

    Before we get down to doctrine, let's get the source straight. The OLDEST early Christian manuscripts DID NOT use "Jehovah" in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Why didn't the WTBTS use those? Which manuscripts are these? In any event, if some earlier than the end of the 1st and 2nd century of Christ left the name out, there were those that HAD it in Hebrew in the Greek text. The Septugiant (sp?) was an early translation of the 'Old Testament' into Greek- it DID the same; YHWH in Hebrew! The Last Apostle (John) said that many antichrists were ALREADY twisting the truth- and that many more were coming; what antichrist will EVER honor the One who sent Christ forth- especially His Name?

    Mad

  • Mad
    Mad

    Nark wrote: "Good boy." (Do I get a bone?)

    Now explain to me why the NW translators assume that all copies in all areas were corrupt, as regards the divine name? that none of them represents the original text, since all use kurios, never Yhwh?

    Never???? There were some that had the Hebrew Tetagrammaton. However, there was no equivalent of the name in Greek- and shortly after the apostles died, the Trinitarians arose.

    Read Romans chapter 10 in any Bible except the NWT; try to understand what point Paul is trying to make, and how the quotation of Joel in v. 13 serves his argument. When you get it, switch to the NWT and see what happens.What did you see "excercis faith" instead of "believe"? "Jehovah" instead of "LORD"? It seems the same to me- just easier to understand.

    Hmm.. my point was about "Jehovah".

    Joel USED the Divine Name. Since Paul, who was a Jew and spoke Hebrew, used the name- and certainly would not corrupt Joel's words,was referring to it- maybe using "Kurios" instead, since there was no Greek pronounciation of it at that time! My guess is you're implying Jesus WAS Jehovah- and that the name "Jesus" replaced it. Correct?

    But here you didn't play the game. Let's break it down. First tell me what function v. 13 (the quotation of Joel) plays in the whole argument. Notice it is introduced by gar, "for, because".

    Read Romans chapter 10 in any Bible except the NWT; try to understand what point Paul is trying to make, and how the quotation of Joel in v. 13 serves his argument. When you get it, switch to the NWT and see what happens.What did you see "excercis faith" instead of "believe"? "Jehovah" instead of "LORD"? It seems the same to me- just easier to understand.

    You LOST me there, Nark!

  • Mad
    Mad

    Vinny wrote: "You are truly to be commended Mad! I read your replies to my questions. Out of the thousands of JW's that have been presented with these, only TWO have answered correctly. THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THESE ANYWHERE.

    You are on the right road THEN. Stay open-minded and respectful for as long as this process takes you.

    The next question then is; what do these obvioulsy mistaken policies say about the source of such policies? I don't care! I focus on scripture.

    Would the Grand Creator of the Universe choose to use such an organization that has made continuous mistakes as His One and ONLY group of people on earth today? He did with Israel! His only other option is to send angels down and organize them- but even THEY get screwed up, and even rebel at times!
    Would it be reasonable for thinking persons to question such an organization based on that organization's history as well as current list of mistaken views? Of course! What's wrong with that?
    I will start a new thread later on for yourself and any other current JW's that wish to express themselves.

    Your open-minded spirit is a welcomed change from most JW's that come here. Not that you are conceding anything at this time, I acknowledge that. But an open, honest mind is the only mind that will find what the real truth is... whatever that may be... LOLOLO! So true! Whattaya mean by "you are conceding anything at this time"? Seems like I'm doing a LOT of conceding!
    I'll get back in a few hours.

    All the best,

    Vinny Thank you, Vinny; it's encouraging to talk to you! Agape, Mad

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Now explain to me why the NW translators assume that all copies in all areas were corrupt, as regards the divine name? that none of them represents the original text, since all use kurios, never Yhwh?

    Never???? There were some that had the Hebrew Tetagrammaton.

    None. Remember, my question was about NT ChristianGreekmanuscripts (mss). The Greek mss which have the Tetragrammaton are of the Jewish Septuagint (LXX), i.e. OT. The "J"-documents which are listed in the footnotes and appendices of the NWT, deceptively on par with the Greek mss, are free translations from the Greek into Hebrew, one from the late middle-ages, the others from the modern period down to the 20th century. They are absolutely no witnesses to the original Greek text.

    However, there was no equivalent of the name in Greek

    Wrong. There are transliterations in Greek such as Iaô (which is found in some LXX mss), Iabe, Iabai, Iaouai... not in NT texts though...

    - and shortly after the apostles died, the Trinitarians arose.

    Remember, those pesky Trinitarians were around too when those NT copies were produced which transmitted the NT oh so accurately (you do deserve your bone after all). And after all they did not change the verses which JWs and other unitarians use against the Trinity, did they? Why they would have made a successful conspiracy against the "divine name" is beyond (even Trinitarian) logic -- especially when you think that most Greek-Hebrew translators who produced the so-called "J-documents" were Trinitarian too and that their point in "translating" the NT kurios with the Hebrew Tetragrammaton was, precisely, to identify the "Lord Jesus" with the OT Yahweh!

    Joel USED the Divine Name. Since Paul, who was a Jew and spoke Hebrew, used the name- and certainly would not corrupt Joel's words,was referring to it- maybe using "Kurios" instead, since there was no Greek pronounciation of it at that time! My guess is you're implying Jesus WAS Jehovah- and that the name "Jesus" replaced it. Correct?

    Whether Paul spoke Hebrew at all is debatable (Acts 21:40; 22:2 say he did, but to me that doesn't prove anything; well, let's admit it for the sake of argument). But my point is the following: Paul (writing in Greek) pleads that the Gentile believers are saved by confessing Jesus as kurios (v. 9), thereby calling on the name of the kurios (v. 12). His scriptural basis (gar, "for, because", v. 13a) for doing so is the quotation of Joel, which in Greek reads pas (gar) hos an epikalesètai to onoma kuriou sôthèsetai -- "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved". That makes sense. Substitute Yhwh for kurios and it makes no sense whatsoever. Paul has no reason for quoting Joel and his argument is left without any scriptural basis. Iow, the rhetorical analysis of the text shows that Paul had to use kurios here and the NWT is wrong; worse, it destroys the whole argument (which most JWs never realise because they don't care for the argument, they just quote v. 13 out of context). If, as you maintain, Paul was thinking Yhwh when he wrote kurios, this has to apply to v. 9 and 12 as well for the argument to stand (I don't think that was his point btw, but this is the consequence of your assumption). Got it now?

    The Jews, even though speaking the language of whatever land they live in-as tody- in general, still sopke Hebrew. When Jesus read from the scroll of Isaiah at the temple, it was likely in Hebrew- and to think HE wouldn't honor nor use the Name of his God & Father is ludicrous. Also, to think Jesus- who condemned their ridiculous traditions- would follow them by NOT using the Name- is EQUALLY so!

    This is historically wrong. Most Jews in Palestine (not to mention the diaspora) spoke Greek and Aramaic; Hebrew was hardly understood outside the priestly circles. As early as in Ezra-Nehemiah you find indications that the practice of Hebrew is waning, whence the need to interpret/translate Torah reading (Nehemiah 8:8 which Jewish translation points to as the start of the -- originally oral -- Aramaic targumim).

    Moreover, how do (you think) you know Jesus was not following contemporary Jewish traditions? Because the Gospels mention specific conflicts, e.g. on the Sabbath or the washing of hands. The same Gospels picture him as following other traditions, such as the fringe of garments or Hanukkah. Do they mention any conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees about the use of the divine name? QED.

    Before we get down to doctrine, let's get the source straight. The OLDEST early Christian manuscripts DID NOT use "Jehovah" in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Why didn't the WTBTS use those? Which manuscripts are these? In any event, if some earlier than the end of the 1st and 2nd century of Christ left the name out, there were those that HAD it in Hebrew in the Greek text.
    Not NT mss. See above.

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