A couple of threads on this subject (with Leolaia's comments ):
THE WAGES SIN PAYS
by Dansk 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Woodsman
You are never forgiven. Its just s trick.
If you believe in Christ you are supposed to be forgiven yet you still die.
If you die you are supposed to have paid your debt for sins yet you are resurrected to a judgement.
Those new scrolls you heard of have new reasons why you will still be guilty even after judgement day.
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Inquisitor
I believe it is speaking of spiritual death, not physical death - the same with God's warning to Adam and Eve - hence they didn't physically die on the day they ate of the tree. When you think about it, this also makes sense of why animals physically die even though they didn't sin.
Giving dying arguments the breath of life by interpreting words on a spiritual plane is notoriously employed by fundamentalist Christians.
Lemme give you an example: "Christ returns in 1914 so the End of Days is due then", but nothing happened to the faithful in 1914! so "Christ's return was invisible aka spiritual; End of Days postponed until further notice".
Handy abracadabra, isn't it?
I'm not contending that this scripture necessarily means a clean-slate start after death/resurrection. I merely find it very puzzling why we can't let the Bible speak for itself? If it doesn't say death of the spirit and nothing in the context indicates it should, then there is no reason to make that assumption.
Also, if we DO go along with the spiritual death interpretation it still doesn't explain the reason animals die. It matters not if animal death is physical or spiritual. The question is why, not how. Why do animals die at all, even if they are dying in a spiritual sense, whatever that means?
INQ
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moggy lover
Evangelicals believe that the context, particularly taking in the grammatical tense that Paul uses throughout Rom Ch 6, is helpful in determining what he is talking about.
It is true that quite often the WTS has used Ro 6:7 to justify its teaching that the incorrigible are given a "second chance" when they are resurrected sometime during the Millennium. They give the impression that Paul is saying that once one dies, the debt he owed has been paid so when resurrected that person can now start again, a free from the burden of his past.
Is that what Paul is referring to? Ever notice how, whenever the WTS uses this verse they never consult the context, ie the surrounding vss of Ch 6, to detirmine Paul's meaning.
The question that Paul is adressing is not the resurrection, but one that the WTS itself often uses, cynically, to negate the grace of God in forgiving us, thus no longer requiring us to "work" to expiate our sins. What? You mean that God has forgiven me all my sins? Even those I hav'nt even committed yet? Every single sin? And all I gotta to is believe on the Lord Jesus? Yes.
But that means I can just keep on sinning since I have already been fogiven, right?
Wrong. Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase? No. 6:1.
Why?
Because there are two kinds of people in the world today. Those who are dead and those who are alive. The thing that seperates them is sin. The awfullness of sin has never really been made plain to the R&F of the WTS. If you continue in your sins, then, being alive to sin, you are in fact dead to God. If you are dead to sin, then you are alive to God. This is the alternative Paul discusses in Ro ch 6.
Either be alive or dead. If belief in Christ is motivating you, then consider yourself alive. [6:11]. This will cause you to break the power of sin in your life, no longer obeying its desires. You cannot be, as the WTS suggests, alive to God, by going from d-t-d, yet at the same time also alive to sin.[6:16]
If you are alive to sin, then sin has a hold of you. No matter how many times you ask forgivness, no matter how many hours you spend in the field service, because you are alive to sin, you are unforgiven.
But what if you have died to sin? Ah! That, according to Paul, is precisely the point!! You are then acquitted from sin, and it has no hold on you [6:7] The grace of God has now got a hold of you, and you are alive to Him.[6:17]
Belief in Christ, living what Paul calls an existence "in Christ" causes two seperate conditions in the believers life: 1. Complete forgiveness, of all sin.Past. Present. And future [Note that according to the WTS, belief in the WTS only ensures forgiveness of something called "Adamic sin" your own personal sins need expiation by your efforts] 2: Being now acquitted from sin, you enjoy fellowship with Christ, for while yet being a sinner, capable of sin, you no longer are alive to it.[6:2]
If you wish to go from d-t-d, evangelize, visit hospitals, feed the poor, or whatever, you don't do so to get forgiveness for sin, because you are already acquitted from it, but because the appreciation for the grace of God motivates you.
The first guy to understand this point clearly was Martin Luther, back in the 16th century
And he broke from Rome.
Many ex-WT followers are in the same position, leading to their break from Brooklyn Heights.
Cheers
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avidbiblereader
As their debt was paid, this means they couldn't die again
John 12:9,10 9 When all the people [d] heard of Jesus’ arrival, they flocked to see him and also to see Lazarus, the man Jesus had raised from the dead. 10 Then the leading priests decided to kill Lazarus, too
abr
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sspo
If the wages of sin is death and then Rom. 6:7 says that the one that has died has been aquitted of his sins,
Why is it that some say you will burn in hell if you don't serve God
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bob1999
Because of Adam's sin we all die physically. Because of our own sin we will all die the second death without Jesus Christ and the grace of God. The wages of sin is the second death. The only death that really matters.
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Leolaia
Rom. 6:7 says that the one that has died has been aquitted of his sins
No, it says that one who has died has been acquitted -- or released from legal obligation -- from (apo) sin. See the verse that immediately precedes this one, sin is construed as a slave-holder (v. 6). Paul is saying that Christians are set free from their slavery to sin. This has nothing to do with the deeds one commits under slavery to sin, which are still subject to judgment by God (Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10). The verse is talking about the relationship between man and sin, not between man and God. Same thing about the wages paid by sin. Slaves in the ancient Roman world received wages (peculium) from their slaveholders for food and personal expenses. This allowance could be saved up so that the slave could purchase his own release from slavery. Sin pays out death to its slaves, which in turn releases them from their debt to sin.
See my more detailed explanation in the threads linked above.
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blondie
Thanks Leolaia. Excellent point; one I knew but leaked out of my brain.
Blondie
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bob1999
The word "died" in Rom 6:7 is refering to baptism. Verse 2, same word, same meaning. Verse 3, baptized, different word, twice, same meaning. Verse 4, buried and baptized, different words, same meaning. Verse 5, united, different word, same meaning. Verse 6, crucified, different word, same meaning. Verse 7, Those who have been baptized in Christ, Buried in Christ, United with Christ in death, Crucified with Christ are free from sin. A child can see this.