by Dansk 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Dansk

    The Bible tells us that the wages sin pays is death. Therefore, when we die our debt is paid.

    However, in the Bible there are a number of cases where people got resurrected. As their debt was paid, this means they couldn't die again.

    Ah, but some might say that these ones merely went on to live the average length of time and then died again. No. That isn't what the scriptures say. They merely talk about the one death paying for the sins. Nowhere does it talk about a second death until judgement day.

    So, does this mean there are a number of people walking about the earth who are centuries old?


  • Crumpet
    So, does this mean there are a number of people walking about the earth who are centuries old?

    yes they are known as vampires!

    Seriously though you have pointed out an inconsistency in bible teaching.

    Personally I though we all know that you die if you sin or not. I would say a better lesson if the writer had thought a bit harder might have been the wages of sin is bad karma - screw about and cheat and it will happen to you when you least expect it, hurt others and you will be hurt. This is a much better restraining factor than the rather empty final statement about death when its inevitable anyway.

  • dedpoet

    You ask an interesting question Ian, not that I believe in the bible. If the bible is true, I don't recall any verse that answers your question

    I'd like to hear the wts reply to it.

  • blondie

    But according to this, are they raised sinless or do they commit new sins? If so, they aren't raised to live forever. That is why the WTS teaches that everlasting life is not given out until the final test at the end of the 1,000 year reign and that people can die all along that time period by God's hand even though they may not have aged.

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Hi Ian

    I believe it is speaking of spiritual death, not physical death - the same with God's warning to Adam and Eve - hence they didn't physically die on the day they ate of the tree.

    When you think about it, this also makes sense of why animals physically die even though they didn't sin. I was discussing this with pubsinger once and he wondered if it may just be that physical bodies were actually made to be mortal, or somehow be changed, maybe we just move to a different plane of existence when the physical body is worn out - so Enoch lived a righteous life and then he was no more because God took him?

    It may therefore be that spiritual death means you don't 'move on' to the next plane of existence - in a sense, you are annihilated.

    my 2p - but I'm still thinking about my beliefs on this one.

  • Rooster





    Satan and the demons have always been cruel and dangerous. In early times Satan killed the livestock and servants of faithful Job. Then he killed Job’s ten children by causing "a great wind" to destroy the house they were in. After that Satan struck Job with "a malignant boil from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head."—Job 1:7-19; 2:7.

    In Jesus’ day, the demons made some people speechless and blind. (Matthew 9:32, 33; 12:22) They tormented one man and made him slash himself with stones. (Mark 5:5) They also caused a boy to cry out, dashed him to the ground, and "violently convulsed him."—Luke 9:42.

    Today, Satan and the demons are as murderous as ever. In fact, their evil activity has increased since they were thrown out of heaven. Reports from around the world testify to their cruelty. They plague some people with illness. Others they harass at night, depriving them of sleep or giving them terrible dreams. Others they abuse sexually. Still others they drive to insanity, murder, or suicide.

    Lintina, who lives in Suriname, relates that a demon, or bad spirit, killed 16 members of her family and tormented her physically and mentally for 18 years. From firsthand experience she states that the demons "enjoy torturing their unwilling victims until death."

    But Jehovah is able to protect his servants from Satan’s attacks.—Proverbs 18:10.



    In the past, the demons made some people sick and threw others into convulsions



    The demons today cause some people to be violent; they harass others at night, giving them terrible dreams

  • SixofNine

    You forget one thing my friend: the wages of sin don't adjust for inflation. It's a buyer's market when you sell your soul.


  • darth frosty
    darth frosty

    I have always wondered about that point. It is indeed a serious undertaking for those who were 'gifted' with the ability to raise the dead. One would think with this great gift, that extreme care and thought would be put into the use of this 'gift'. But, lets look at the randomness with which this 'gift' was used.

    You have a kid who falls asleep in a widow sill, while paul is giving the local needs part on the service meeting. You have to question the use of this resurection on someone not smart enough to realize the proper way to sleep in a meeting, is to lean on the armrest like your paying attention.

    Then you have the cat in the O.T. who was thrown into the grave and merely touched the bones of elisha and came back to life. You have to question his choice of friends. They didn't even check to make sure he was dead before tossing him in a tomb scared by some maurading band.

    Maybe these cats are still alive and working at bethel as we speak...or type as it were.

  • Leolaia
    Seriously though you have pointed out an inconsistency in bible teaching.

    It's rather a problem with Watchtower teaching, as the Bible doesn't teach what the Society says it does here. It is a misreading of Romans 6 to claim that death absolves our guilt for sin and we are resurrected with a clean slate. In fact, throughout Jewish and Christian literature (including Matthew 5:29-30, 12:42, John 5:29, 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Revelation 20:12-13, 4 Ezra 7:32-38), the future general resurrection is for the judgment of people on the basis of deeds they formerly committed. This is clearly expressed by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:10, a text that is cognate to Romans 14:10. What Romans 6 really says is that sin holds us in bondage throughout our lives but death frees us from that bondage (i.e. you are not enslaved to sin when you are dead), and through Christ we can die to sin while still alive in the flesh. This is totally different from releasing us from our debt to God who holds us responsible for the deeds we commit. I have gone into more detail on this in earlier posts.

    The contradiction rather lies in the gospel narratives that relate resurrections occurring prior to Jesus' own death and resurrection (cf. Matthew 27:52-53, Mark 9:26-27, John 11:43-44), whereas Paul construes Jesus as the first to undergo resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:20, Colossians 1:18), nor does he mention these other resurrections as proof of the reality of the resurrection. This tension between gospel stories and Pauline theology can be seen in the presence of harmonizing glosses in Matthew 27:52-53 (absent in the text incorporated into the Diatessaron), which awkwardly make the resurrected dead wait until Jesus' resurrection to leave their graves. However, since Paul construes resurrection as involving a transformation of the body into incorruptibility (1 Corinthians 15:42-51, Philippians 3:20-21), it can be said that the raisings of Lazarus and the demoniac boy were not resurrections in the Pauline sense, i.e. they are resuscitations without transformation of the body to incorruptibility, on the model of Elisha in the OT (2 Kings 4:8-37). The independent tradition in Matthew 27 however poses a bigger problem for the Pauline view as these bodies would have seen corruption (hence the Society's attempt to construe these as corpses uplifted by the earthquake). BTW, Papias (fount of fanciful Christian tradition that he was) also relates that the people resurrected by Jesus lived until the time of Trajan (AD 53-117).


    There are Vampire JW`s that are centurys old and live in windowless Kingdom Hall`s.."Velcome to my Keengdoum Haul..I am Count Dubula!...OUTLAW

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