Watchtower getting very Defensive over blood issue publicity....

by kid-A 142 Replies latest social current

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  hamsterbait

  Skeeter -

  It was in the late 80s early nineties. Unfortunately I have trashed so much of my old litterature you need to appeal to Blondie.

  HB
• 

  mcsemike

  Where do we start with this one? And with the idiot elders sticking their stupid noses in this?

  The parents want to be heroes to the world and their friends, so they "leaked" their religion. Obviously, the local congregation knows who they are. It's hard to have all those babies without anyone knowing.

  "So what if they're JW's?" asked the dumb elder. That's the whole point. The JW's have MADE it the point for decades. It's NOT a medical issue with them, it IS a religious one. They run for their Bibles and quote their rights to "practice their religion" and THEN they add that blood might have AIDS or other diseases. But it's primarily a religious decision and they know it. If they were Catholic (and yes, they just HAVE to poke fun at the Catholics, it's never anyone else) it wouldn't be an issue because Catholics aren't lunatics and hypocrites when it comes to blood. They don't forbid it and they don't flip-flop every other month about it. There is no reason for anyone to call the Vatican if a Catholic had that many babies since there is no policy against blood, so there is no news. The WT knows damn well why this is in the news.

  "Do they mention the person's religion if they were in a car crash?" No, because other religions don't make a production about every detail of a member's life. Someday there'll be an article on which hand is proper to use to wipe your nose. He keeps saying it's not a religious issue. IT'S NOTHING BUT.

  "Non-blood treatment is superior in every situation"? I don't think so, moron. Who told you that you were a doctor?? Stick to lying, it's what you do best. "The gold standard"? What have you been smoking?? If blood was such poison, then why is it an issue in every hospital? "Many doctors"? How many? Two?? Are they JW doctors?? People die all the time if they are not given blood when they needed it. Why do you think it goes to a judge so often for?

  Hecklerboy, good point. If an adult wants to die, fine. But you don't have the right to kill your children. What if that child grows up and leaves the WT? How can he if he dies as an infant? How do you know what that child will do when it is 18?? A parent may have the right to die for his religion, but he doesn't have the right to have his child die for his religion. "You can die for your children if you want to, but you have no right to have them die for you."

  I smell a huge Convention part in a few years. And a WT article will come out either way. If the children live, look how dumb it is to disobey the Bible (READ WT). If the children die, they died faithful. Faithful to what? They don't even know the issues.

  Why is he surprised the family gave their religion? They ask you when you are admitted and put it on your wristband.

  As for having so many kids, what can the WT say? At least Canada's figures won't go down so fast. "Little jingles on TV"? Oh, you watch TV? Why aren't you out in service? I thought TV was from Satan? Oooohhh, you said a bad word "jingles". (Jingle bells.) Quick, go say a Hail Mary and make sure to use your rosary.

  You consider life precious? Then why do you gloat that six BILLION people are going to die soon? Yes, YOUR CHILDREN'S lives count, you are right. But no one else's. Such compassion. You jackass. You love YOUR children dearly. I loved mine too, but you took her away with your shunning policy. Someday I'll take something away from you.

  You'd like to give the family support? What kind? Like hang around the hospital threatening the staff that if they even think about blood, you'll sue? I hope they take your blood, the hard way. In fact, it would be poetic justice. The babies need blood, you donate it.
• 

  wednesday

  . Damn the all for brainwashing people into being willing to stick a gun to their head and pull the trigger.

  This hit home recently for our family.

  weds
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  DannyHaszard

  click here for listing of all +273 articles local,national,international http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1112518669
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  Scully

  skeeter1:

  Please, please, please tell me where/when the Society said that unborn babies would not be resurrected. I was unaware of that statement.

  ***

  w843/15pp.30-31QuestionsFromReaders***

  Questions

  FromReaders

  ·

  Myfriendhadamiscarriage.AsawomanIsympathizewithher,butwoulditbepropertoencouragehertohopeinaresurrection?

  You certainly can do much good by giving her comfort and loving Christian help. But the Bible does not provide a basis to expect a resurrection of the embryo. Consider why:

  When a woman conceives, there is just one cell, a fertilized egg. Normally, over a period of nine months that cell divides and implants in her uterus, the embryo develops, and finally a child is born. A miscarriage cuts short this natural process, ending the life that has begun and that should grow into a separate human. If an abortion is performed, it conflicts with the sanctity of life and with God’s command against murder.—Exodus 20:13; 21:22, 23; Numbers 35:16-18; 1 Peter 4:15.

  Our Life-Giver is aware of a life growing in the uterus, as we can see from what the Bible says about Jesse’s wife carrying the embryo that developed and that was born and named David. (Psalm 139:13-16; compare Job 31:15.) What, though, about the possibility of a resurrection in instances of miscarriage or stillbirth?

  The Bible acknowledges that a fetus or an embryo can die. This results in spontaneous abortion, or miscarriage, or in a stillbirth.—Genesis 31:38; Exodus 23:26; 2 Kings 2:19-21; Job 21:10; Psalm 58:8; 144:14.

  Job mentioned various ways in which a miscarriage can occur, any of which he felt would have been better for him than the suffering he was experiencing. He said that he might have been "a hidden miscarriage," someone who "should not come to be, like children that have seen no light." (Job 3:16) This could refer to a woman’s miscarrying even before she realized that she was pregnant and while the embryo was not viable. TheBodyMachine states: "Many ova [fertilized eggs] do not develop normally, a greater number in fact than those which do. About ten per cent fail to implant and of those that do about half are aborted spontaneously, usually without the mother knowing."

  Job also said that if ‘the doors of his mother’s belly had been closed, he would have been concealed from trouble.’ So he would have escaped suffering if he had ‘proceeded to die from the womb’ or "in the womb." (Job 3:10, 11, NewWorldTranslationoftheHolyScriptures;Rotherham) Serious defects in the embryo or fetus sometimes cause this. Or it may result from abnormalities in the mother’s reproductive organs; deficiencies of vitamins, hormones or oxygen; or maternal disease.

  In his agony Job felt that such possibilities would have been better for him. Yet his mother would have been saddened, even as are women today when inherited imperfection results in miscarriage or stillbirth. In mentioning those possibilities, Job did not say that he would have been in line for a resurrection anyway. The benefit, as he saw it, was that he would have been concealed from trouble or have been undisturbed.

  Job added another possibility: "Why did I not come forth from the belly itself and then expire?" (Job 3:11) If, as sometimes occurs, Job had been born and soon thereafter died, maybe even before having been suckled, what might his future prospects be? He did not in the context discuss that. But later he showed that if, after having lived as a human, he had died and gone to Sheol, God likely would ‘set a time limit and remember him.’ Our Life-Giver ‘would call and Job himself would answer.’ Yes, Jehovah God could bring Job back to life, resurrect him.—Job 14:13-15.

  This accords with our knowledge of resurrection in Biblical examples. Those who were resurrected evidently were brought back to life as the individuals they had been at death. That is, children who died were resurrected as children, adults as adults. (2 Kings 4:17-20, 32-37; Luke 7:12-15; 8:40-42, 49-55; John 11:38-44) Would it be reasonable to think that if a "hidden miscarriage" had occurred in Job’s case, in the New Order that microscopic embryo would be restored to his mother’s womb to continue a pregnancy of which she might have been unaware? That does not conform to what the Bible shows about the resurrection, which always involved persons who had been born and existed as separate individuals before God.—John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15.

  But what if the embryo was more developed, had become a fetus or even was close to full term? There are many possible situations. However, there is no point in speculating, for there are countless sad consequences of imperfection suffered today. In the restored Paradise our loving heavenly Father will reverse man’s sinful condition and bring marvelous blessings. Many people will be resurrected. The decision as to how the resurrection will be carried out, and to what extent, rests with Jehovah and Jesus. We can be sure that the decision will reflect Jehovah’s perfect wisdom and justice.

  Elihu assured Job: "Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly! For according to the way earthling man acts he will reward him . . . Yes, for a fact, God himself does not act wickedly." (Job 34:10-12) All of us, including couples who have had the very sad experience of a miscarriage or stillbirth, can take comfort in knowing that "good and upright is Jehovah."—Psalm 25:8.
• 

  Sunspot

  There have been some VERY good comments from the posters here on this topic....and some VERY stupid comments from the WTS camp through the media. It will be interesting to follow this closely to see what takes place next. It certainly appears that the WTS has gotten itself in a bind. No doubt they will talk their way OUT of, but LOTS of PR damage has already been done. :o)
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  skeeter1

  In the time of Job, a fetus's viability would have been not likely, if at all, at any time before full term (37-40 weeks). Why? the lungs are the last to develop and often collapse (i.e. "sticky lungs"). With modern medicine, we continue to push back the baby's point of viability. Now, a chance of hope exists at 23 weeks. Modern medicine makes the Society's article even more "quacky" than it already is.

  Plus, what if the woman miscarried because of her own imperfection? Women with immune disorders or blood clotting problems often can not carry without the help of blood thinners. They lose babies in the 2nd & 3rd trimester. Say, a woman "miscarried" at 32 weeks due to a clotting disorder. In the time of Job, this baby would likely not have survived. Now, if the mother was perfect in the "new world"(tm), she could have carried the baby full term. What then, oh lord Watchtower?

  Most miscarriages are due to chromosomal abnormalities of the baby. In the "new world" where we are all to become perfect again, wouldn't Jehovah God be able to "fix" the chromosomal abnormalities of the fetus?

  The Watchtower's speculation on "new world" "what if's" just makes me sick as a duck. Quack, quack.

  Skeeter
• 

  Scully

  Another article regarding the WTS's position on resurrection for miscarried or stillborn pregnancies:

  ***w694/1 pp.223-224 Questions from Readers***

  Questions

  from Readers

  •

  Can a woman who has had a stillborn child reasonably expect the baby to be resurrected if she is faithful to God? — J.R., England.

  Let us say at the outset that we sincerely sympathize with women who have had such an experience. We realize that it is a very sad event, and it once again underscores our need for God’s new order where "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more." (Rev. 21:4) Only then will such tragic results of human imperfection be eliminated.

  When a woman conceives, an ovum being fertilized by a male sperm, life is passed on. According to God’s view, the living embryo or fetus in the womb is considered a soul, and, under normal circumstances, it will in time be a separate individual before God. According to the Mosaic law, if a man damaged a woman, causing her to lose the child developing in her womb, the punishment was "soul for soul." (Ex. 21:22, 23) It is for this reason that, from a Biblical standpoint, willful abortion is murder.—Ex. 20:13; 1 Pet. 4:15.

  In some cases, though, sickness or accident kills the developing embryo or fetus before it grows to full term and is born. While the immediate causes for such miscarriages and stillbirths are many, human imperfection is the root cause. And we have to look to God for the permanent end to imperfection.

  What about the possibility of a resurrection in these cases? Resurrection implies a raising to life again. The examples in the Bible of persons raised to human life again indicate that the person comes back to life with the same degree of physical and mental growth possessed at death. (2 Ki. 4:17-36; Acts 20:9-12) Applying that to miscarriages and stillborn deliveries, is it reasonable that in the future Jehovah will insert back into the womb of a woman a partially developed embryo, or possibly a number of them? No, that does not seem so, nor is it likely that women who have had this sad experience actually expect that.

  Furthermore, resurrection is for persons who have lived as individuals before Jehovah. Even a child who lives for only a short time after birth has existed as a separate person. But a miscarried fetus or stillborn child, though from a Biblical standpoint considered a "soul" while it was developing, never actually lived as a separate and distinct individual. So it would appear that such situations do not fall under the resurrection provision outlined in the Bible.—Acts 24:15.

  We fully appreciate that this view might be most disappointing to some. But we can assure all that it is not offered out of callousness or dogmatism. Rather, we are simply replying frankly and honestly on the basis of what we find in God’s Word. We emphasize that we are not in position to pass judgment on particular cases. All sorts of "borderline" situations might be brought up, and about them we have to say: God is the judge, and, being aware of all the circumstances, he will have to decide.

  We know that Jehovah is truly perfect in wisdom, mercy and justice. He is "a God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." (Deut. 32:4) Christians should develop trust in him and his promise: "You will cause me to know the path of life. Rejoicing to satisfaction is with your face; there is pleasantness at your right hand forever." (Ps. 16:11) So we urge all who have had the sad experiences discussed above to leave the matter in Jehovah’s hands, confident that he will do the right and just thing.—Job 34:10; Gen. 18:25.
• 

  Scully

  ***w544/15 p.255 Questions from Readers***

  Questions

  from Readers

  •

  Will a baby that is stillborn or that dies shortly after birth have a resurrection if its parents are faithful servants of Jehovah?—H.C., United States.

  What Jehovah resurrects or implants in a created body is the life pattern or personality the individual had developed before death. Although a child dying a few hours or days or even a year after birth may not have developed a life pattern or intelligent memory, yet it has a mental and trait inheritance from its forebears, and if time had been allowed for these to develop they would have resulted in a definite personality which would have shown relationship to the family. Said Dr. Milton J. E. Senn in March of 1949 from the Child Study Center of Yale University, in his capacity of professor of pediatrics and psychiatry: "It appears that the beginnings of the individual organism in a psychological sense as well as in a physiological sense begin with conception. . . . The child comes into the world with physical and mental patterns pretty well set, and the child’s behavior during the growing up period is influenced by them."

  Jehovah God and Christ Jesus are able to note and reproduce all these latent tendencies in a babe and to reproduce them in the resurrection, so that the child to whom its mother will then be united will really be her child, and as such traits and tendencies unfold with the child’s growing up under the Kingdom and in the new earth, this fact will become more and more apparent to the mother. She will know it is really her own for these reasons and not for any basic physical resemblance. In the case of one that was stillborn these physical and mental patterns that are inherited were present from the time of conception and for the time the babe was developing in the womb, but the child had never lived as an individual, and resurrection is for those who have lived.

  If children are sanctified by reason of a believing parent, then there is no reason to doubt that such "holy" children will have a part in the resurrection, even if they died as babes.
• 

  SirNose586

  I certainly hope those babies get whatever they need to survive.

  The WTS statements could've been a lot less cultish sounding. I know Canadians are smarter than Americans, so, I'm sure these statements will end up hurting them.