Last time I sailed on a Caledonian Macbrayne steamer from Malaig to Skye and thence to Kyle of Lochalsh I thought I was in heaven
Maybe There's a Heaven...
by LittleToe 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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toreador
Hello Ross,
Thank you for your reply. I too think you may have something to offer that would be of great interest to many including myself. Many who are on the edge, which includes myself, may find encouragement to pursue further in regaining confidence in God. It sounds like you have had too many experiences for it to be coincidence.
Thanks,
Tor
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proplog2
Little Toe:
Inside every "sweet" person is a spiteful brat. You can't change THAT.
I don't give a damn about convention. I can't change THAT.
So go ahead and enjoy your boundaries, social walls, convention, ego. Perhaps your experience of divine love is an effort by your body to break through to authenticity. People who hide behind convention experience "love" as a foreign body. If you could own your love it wouldn't be haunting you.
Others here won't understand what I'm talking about. They will think I am being an asshole to you. But YOU know what I'm talking about.
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smellsgood
Proplog, you do sound insane last post, tis true.
Little Toe: Yes, THAT is one of the things that I would found so disturbing w/ JW description of paradise earth. It seemed like, they were all down on earth, still fending for themselves, going about day to day chores. And where was He? Still sort of "up in the clouds" not PRESENT with them. So, I thought, why bother? What's the point of this "reward" when you are not "reunited" with the Object of your devotion.
It's always who you're with not where you are, right? -
LittleToe
Smellsgood:Aye, that's right. But the wonder of it all is that he's ever-present. I know not all have a sense of that, and there are times when that sense grows dull for me, too. We all experience the "dark night of the soul", and come out the other end re-forged. Some of us many times.
Proplog:I'm sorry that you feel you are so unable to change. It must suck to be at the end of an evolutionary line and about to go extinct.
You know so little and claim so much, about the inner workings of another mind. FYI I own it all. That doesn't obviate the sense of undeservedness. To illustrate; if a close friend gave you $100 because they won the lottery and wanted to share, I'm sure you might well own and spend it. If the experience kept being repeated time and time again, aside from accepting that your friend was a lucky b*gger, you may feel unworthy of your friend's attention. It may even lead to acute embarrassment if you recalled that years ago you stole $10 from them. Confessing the deed might leave you feeling little better.
"Love" might be more intangible than cash, but a sense of udeservedness can remain. Regardless of how much someone tells you they love you and shows it, you can still feel out of your league - even when your status in the world is equal. It is possible to own it, as you rightly state, but that doesn't mean there won't be the occasional attempt at reflection, which this thread represents.
Now, to another matter: Have you ever wondered why you ar3e so misunderstood?
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Narkissos
Nothing insane being foreign to me, I do find some insight in proplog's comments (once cleared of personalities, that is).
Inside every "sweet" person is a spiteful brat.
Probably. And probably the reverse is true too. Even for the "spiteful brat" "inside" the "sweet person". "You" can hide behind an unconventional mask just as well as behind a conventional one. It's just another role with its own pains and rewards in the social play.
Like Shrek and onions we're all layers. Take them all off, nothing remains. That will no doubt happen eventually, but there's no hurry imo.
People who hide behind convention experience "love" as a foreign body. If you could own your love it wouldn't be haunting you.
This I find very interesting. Actually I rarely own anything, and certainly not love. Usually I am not enough to have. I would readily describe my "essence" as "ecstatic" (oxymoron intended). Interiority and exteriority coincide as far as "spiritual" (or simply human) experience is concerned. Inside I find another, outside I find myself.
I am quite open to "pathological explanations," actually I'm asking for them (cf. my recent thread on "wisdom and folly"). What I stubbornly oppose is "explaining away," as if pathological diagnosis cancelled the experience or ruled it out of validity. The "insane" persistently reveal something about the "sane," that's why they are so threatening imo.
I have yet to see a man or woman who really is him/herself, with no breach of "identity". Perhaps I am deluded, but I believe that the human language which makes the notion of identity possible also makes it impossible at the same time. Being a subject, able to speak of "my body" (or "my mind," for that matter) implies that "I" am never "just" myself (as the words conscience or consciousness also attest).
Of course not everybody has the same consciousness of this (fortunately). Those who feel it strongly (which is hardly comfortable) are not worth to be put particularly "high" or "low". Just respected for the role they play on the common stage. If they did not play it somebody else would have to (or perhaps the stones would scream).
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Dansk
Hi Ross,
I, for one, don't doubt you had a spiritual experience as I've had a few myself. Thing is, I don't believe your experience is a "Christ" experience, because I've no doubt Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., can all have the same experience and all would attribute it to something connected with their God or prophet or leader or, if atheist, being at one with the universe.
Regarding Proplog2:
I would rather be certifiably insane than to have such an experience.
Well, he's/she's definitely missing out, then!
It's probably quite like many of the annointed claim to experience.
I don't deny this IS a possibility - but then the fact that they continue to be led by men and accept the long line of travesties of justice makes me think it cannot possibly be the same.
And if the powerful feelings of love for Christ puts bounce in your step and so enhances your outlook on life, well then you MUST absolutely go in that direction.
Now that's a more kindly expression and more acceptable. Tact is a wonderful thing! Proplog seems to have a dual personality where he/she is lambasting you on the one hand and yet is agreeable on the other. Have you two had runs-in in the past?!
But I don't believe it has anything to do with the REAL world but is an obsession created by your own imaginative powers.
Again, a strong possibility!
However, because one hasn't had the spiritual experience oneself doesn't mean such experiences are false because others state they have them! I don't believe in Christ or God - yet I have had spiritual experiences, some bordering on the ecstatic - and I don't drink alcohol or indulge in drugs!
Ross, if anyone was to have a genuine spiritual experience I'm not surprised you have! You deserve to because you're a good guy. I don't deny for a moment that your experience was real. I believe the potential is in all of us, but some of us just aren't ready at this time. My experiences have whetted my appetite for more - but I'm convinced my medical treatments, especially the chemo, makes it difficult to tune in - although, having said that, when I was at a particularly vulnerable stage in my illness I had one of the most powerful of experiences. So, if one is karmically ready, there's nothing much one can do about it - but who'd want to as the experience is wonderfully uplifting!
Ian
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daystar
Ross!
I think you know that you and I don't share the same metaphors, but I recognize the underlying force you are describing. Quite powerful. Heart chakra, tiphareth...
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Undecided
I'm still waiting for my experience to come to me.
Ken P.
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hillary_step
Narkissos,
I am quite open to "pathological explanations," actually I'm asking for them (cf. my recent thread on "wisdom and folly"). What I stubbornly oppose is "explaining away," as if pathological diagnosis cancelled the experience or ruled it out of validity.
I believe that something of a pathological nature is this is at the crux of these experiences.
There is no doubt that something happened to Ross. It was so overwhelming that it changed his life, and continues to take charge of his life even years later. Without trivializing the matter President Bush claims to have had a similar experience and was able to deal with his alchoholism as a result of this experience. It was an experience that he claims ensured the White House would one day be his. Numerous people from different religions and ideologies across broad expanses of history claim a similar ecstatic experience. What is common about them all is that they are interpreted in the only way possible to the person experiencing the event, and that is through a mesh of the sum of their religious experience, as I have noted above.
Even though a 'non-believer' Narkissos, your interpretation of the feelings that might live within yourself, as you described within your post above are a very 'Narkissos' style explanation.
It seems to me, that given that these expereinces are not limited to Christians and in many cases have led to slaughter over the footsteps of history we can only reach certain conclusions about them.
1) They are from God.
2) They are either from God or from a malevolent force dependant on the outcome of the experience.
3) They are all cerebral in nature. As you know, stimulating a certain area of the cerebral cortex can give rise to such experiences, visions, and an overwhelming feeling of well-being and of a personal intense love of 'God. Again the interesting thing is that those who have undergone experimentation in this regard all turn to their various Gods for explanation.
4) They are cerebral in nature, but the cerebral cortex is stimulated by a supernatural source outside that person.
One thing is certain, that is, without the area of the brain that we all possess that requires some sort of stimulation to have a 'religious experience', no person would experience what Ross and others on this Board have.
Best regards - HS