Maybe There's a Heaven...

by LittleToe 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

SWALKER

Proplog...
It's kind of like trying to figure out what makes a man want to have his penis cut off, grow breasts, have the male brow flattened with collagen, take elocution lessons to talk like a female. And I'm talking about someone that then wants to be in a lesbian relationship. The mind can get you to do strange things. I'm not trying to make fun of this. A man that thinks his life will be better and more wonderful and fullfilling without his penis MUST absolutely do this.
Are you having regrets about your sex change operation? Do you miss your LITTLE wee-wee??? Don't vent on Little Toe's thread because you're jealous. Start your own thread about your recovery process!
Swalker
Narkissos

Nice post Ross...
Have you ever seen Pasolini's movie Theorem ?
LittleToe

Didier:
No, but I get the feeling I probably ought to, since you recommend it
Proplog:
I'm sorry you find men talking about love so emasculating, and find it so disturbing to read stuff that's beyond your ken and couched in non-scientific language. I have to confess that I didn't expect such a reply from you (since I usually enjoy your posts).
I wasn't looking for the experience (nor have I fully described it, teasing out but one portion of the "feelings" of whole thing), in my own case it all started after I had got ready for work one day, but that's all I'm going to share as you prove once again the validity of my decision never to post about what actually happened on a webboard.
Not that I have any need to explain myself, but I have never been an alcoholic, binge drinker, etc., etc. I know you may find it difficult to believe that I was a clean-living JW Elder, but not all of us gave in to the bottle to see us through.
Grace:
HIs love, and your love of him, shine through all your posts. Every blessing, sis
Hillary: The nearest approximation I can give to it is love in a marital sense. First of all it's all fireworks and bright sputtering flame, and eventually it settles down to the hot glowing embers of a deep and abiding love, with the flame occasionally firing out. And yet, while I've experienced that in marriage having had a marriage that lasted over a decade, this is something deeper and more profound. In that sense it continues unabated, and the flames of passion continue to erupt on a regular basis, as you may see from this thread.
I would concur with the sentiment of texts such as those ascribed Sarah, declaring Abraham "Lord" in her heart, and to David and Jonathan: "your love was better than the love of women". It's a pretty tough act to follow, and not without its ironies since I'm hetero.
As for comparing it to Yogis, etc., I don't work from that framework. However I will be candid and express it this way, influenced a little by CS Lewis: If there truly is one God underlying this universe, and he loves the whole world, why would he limit his presence to just a quarter of the world that enjoyed the Christian framework of reference? Is he really so small as to limit himself to a small parcel of land in Palestine, and a small window of opportunity? If "God is love", then is the deep abiding love experienced by a pagan, hundu, shaman, etc., of a lower grade quality when they earnestly seek to connect to the Divine?
I have suspicions but I don't have answers, hence I'll judge no [wo]man based on their religion. While I think the Christian framework has been more accessible to the Western mind I also know with certainty that people from other parts of the world think using completely different constructs. I'll leave the final analysis to him, and meanwhile enjoy what I can enjoy, with anyone who desires to share such joy, regardless of race, creed, religion, disbelief,...
Alas, as Ozzie aluded to, I have to go out for the day. Thank you all for your comments
jwfacts

Very heartfelt LT. Your experience is something I do not quite understand, but hope to one day.
I imagine your ex-wife will look back with regret if she ever comes to her senses about the WTS.
Outaservice

On doctrine, people have been arguing for years and still have not reached conclusions. However, how can you argue with a persons 'personal experience' related in a testimony? If it happened, it happened.
I would advise you to reevaluate LT your ......"my decision never to post about what actually happened on a webboard....". Tell it to the world, regardless if some choose not to believe, that's their problem! Of course this should never be done in a 'self righteous way' or as some Christians do, ' a condescending way'! This you have not done.
Outaservice
diamondblue1974

There are so many people here that I feel are far far better than I. Brighter, smarter, passionate, more loving, more caring, all the things that I hold in high esteem. That, among other reasons, is perhaps why I've never felt worthy of "going to heaven", or even of receiving the love of Christ and other friends.
LT:- You have a PM.
Gary
carla

When all this jw business first started at our house I could not understand why my soon to be jw found Heaven such a difficult concept. Why wouldn't you want to be where Jesus is no matter 'where' happens to be. I still find it difficult to understand the jw point of view. Why don't scripts like the following apply to everybody? Why do jw's think they are unworthy? "away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2 Cor. 4:14-5:8 NIV) Why do they think this only applies to the apostles? "to depart and be with Christ." (Philippians 1:23 NIV) and on, and on we could go.
Jw's do not 'long for for a better country' (heaven) they long for things of the earth. I can only conclude they are 'lovers of the world' in the extreme.
When I read Matt 23:13, I always think of the wt, in my mind I think I automatically replace Pharisees for the wt/gb/writing dept. and those that spread their message.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matt 23:13
Sad emo

You're awesome Ross!!
I'm sitting here laughing and crying at the same time, your words have really touched and blessed me. They are like a hand reaching in and pulling me from the pit I've found myself trapped in for the last couple of days.
Looking at my own reaction and most of the others I would say that it was no accident that you felt drawn to post your thoughts at this point of time.
May God continue to bless you and use you to bless others.
Blueblades

Hi Ross! "But even if at the close of this life it turns out I was completely deluded, ( for I must permit the possibility that I have completely taken leave of my senses......) Is this why you say, "Maybe There"s a Heaven..." I have always enjoyed all of your topics and follow up remarks. Your epiphany is yours alone and no one can take that away from you. Thanks for sharing.
Btw. You may have read: "The Myth of Certainty" by Daniel Taylor. He writes about 'The Reflective Christian and The Risk of Commitment. One quote: "Taylor affirms a call to throw off the paralysis of uncertainty and to risk commitment to God without forfeiting the God - given gift of an inquiring mind. Throughout he demonstrates clearly how much of the world and the church need question askers". Another quote: "An important book for all Christians, especially those who harbor secret doubts about some of what they have been led to believe is Truth".
Blueblades ( Of the doubting Thomas class ) Remember, Thomas was rewarded for his Doubts with a personal visit from Jesus. So, its ok to doubt, how to find Truth, that is the question.
proplog2

Little Toe:
The alcoholic question. I appreciate your answering my question. It is a legitimate question and was not meant to put anyone down. LT, you have dealt with alcholics, and you know that some are so desperate for organization in their lives that they "get" an experience. I knew a sister who couldn't stop smoking. Suddenly she became annointed and stopped.
Conversion experiences even happen to scientists. A person may have been immersed into a particular paradigm for their whole scientific career. Sometimes they suddenly get the new paradigm and it changes their lives. Sometimes its wrong. I have known people to go through conversion from a conservative ideology to liberal ideology and vice versa. I have gone through many conversions in my life. Ideas can battle in the mind and body. When the conflict is resolved it seems like something that takes place suddenly. A tremendous amount of energy that has been tied up in self-fighting suddenly is released. Oftentimes the relaxation that follows causes tearing of the eyes. Sometimes the feeling merges into a very peacefull attitude or joyful. I believe everyone has these moments. If they are associated with thoughts of Christ then the tendency is to attribute the experience to Christ. This is an associative tendency that is a result of the way our minds have evolved.
This is no doubt the same as the Satori experience in Zen. If you are creative you are likely to experience this feeling many times in your life. Some very conventional people who have no toleration for ambiguity probably never experience this. But if you are a "searcher" and you are attracted to challenging dilemmas you are often going to find what you are looking for.
The knee-jerk antagonism to my comments suggests that many of you have had only one conversion experience in your life. You have to cling to it because that's the only one you are going to have. And IF you cling to it you are practically guaranteeing that you won't have room for another.
When I say it would be a nightmare to experience Christian conversion or some other religious conversion it is because there is no external evidence that such experiences are induced by any of these imagined entitites. It is the persons own conclusion that it is from Christ or whatever. It is the reason I don't believe in the Watchtower explanation of how annointed ones know they are annointed.
The Watchtower keeps misinterpreting the scripture at Romans 8:16 "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's Children" A feeling inside you is YOUR spirit. The way that God's Spirit bears witness to your inner spirit is by imparting a miraculous gift - tongues, healings, prophecy etc. If there isn't some unambiguous visible manifestation then there is NO witness. I don't know for sure what happened with the first Century Christians but those who claim annointing can't point to anything miraculous.
Conversion is a persons own private business. However, if they make it public it is not exempt from scrutiny. Since when is it wrong to examine "anything"?

Maybe There's a Heaven...

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