Maybe There's a Heaven...

by LittleToe 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    LT,

    Many thanks for your post.

    That is why I said that as a religionist, yourself and others are prepared to believe without answers, in fact, without even the expectation of answers and this presents me with an enormous difficulty.

    I think (without rancor) that this is a little disingenuous. You presume to know the hopes and expectations of all those you broadly define as "religionists" (allegedly including myself in the generalisation). My position isn't unique, hence even biblical source claim efforts to "know the height and depth and breadth", and an anticipation to "know even as we are known" and to "see him face to face, for we shall be like him".

    It is not the 'hopes' and 'expectations' of believers that I presume to know. It is the fact that 'hopes' and 'expectations' are not tangible and subsequently by definition can only lead to answers based in feelings and not facts, or as Narkissos suggests a mystic definition.

    You suggest that at some stage we will have answers to the mystical questions that people have been yearning for answers for for tens of thousands of years. Do you believe that will occur after death or before?

    An obvious example of these questions that I imagine has been asked by every person who has ever lived is 'why does God permit wickedness?' Even with the surety of the WTS psuedo-intellectualism under my belt, I never felt that there was a satisfactory answer to this question, and now it once again looms like Everest above me.

    Another question. Why does everything on this planet need to stalk, trap and kill everything else in some way or the other in order to survive? Evolution without an attachment to God gives us a tangible answer, but it presents believers with a huge moral dilemma which they have struggled for centuries to answer - and are even further from knowing as more scientific discovery is made.

    If we knew the answer to such questions, it would make the path to believe much smoother for all of us. Yet the answers evade us. When I question a believer ( I will not use the term 'religionist' until you get a real dictionary ) about these issues it easily confounds them - yet they believe. One responded recently to such a question by saying, 'Well, no astronomer has ever seen a Black Hole, yet they know that they exist'. This example actually underlines my argument, in that there is an expectation of answers ijn this situation as we are dealing with the tangible; the trajectorary of the suns around a black hole can be mathematically evaluated to prove the existence of these vortexes.

    This is what I mean when I note that religionists believers are prepared to believe without answers, or even the expectation of answers.

    Sorry my posts are so long-winded, but this is an enormous subject and I lack Didier's incisiveness.

    Best regards - HS

    PS - Hello Steve! Long time no read. Hope that you are in good form.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Hillary:
    You're right, it's an enourmous subject, which may go some way to explaining the human race's fascination with it for as long as there have been homo sapien sapin, and maybe before.

    You suggest that at some stage we will have answers to the mystical questions that people have been yearning for answers for for tens of thousands of years. Do you believe that will occur after death or before?

    After death, for sure. Hopefully before death, should science continue at its current rate of progress.

    An obvious example of these questions that I imagine has been asked by every person who has ever lived is 'why does God permit wickedness?' Even with the surety of the WTS psuedo-intellectualism under my belt, I never felt that there was a satisfactory answer to this question, and now it once again looms like Everest above me.

    The Gnostics and Deists would disagree with you

    Another question. Why does everything on this planet need to stalk, trap and kill everything else in some way or the other in order to survive? Evolution without an attachment to God gives us a tangible answer, but it presents believers with a huge moral dilemma which they have struggled for centuries to answer - and are even further from knowing as more scientific discovery is made.

    I agree that it is most assuredly a moral dilemma for anyone and everyone who has the honesty to approach it. The usual approach is to suggest that God has a diffferent sense of morality than us. This one is difficult since it would imply that if we began in the "image of God" that somehow we have (either through sin or evolution) produced what appear to be (from our perspective) better morals. The Deist approach offers no more comfort, as it places God as an absentia landlord.

    IMHO the environment we live gives the maximum possible incentive to evolve. While it may seem barbaric to those sentient enough to comprehend it, it also offers plenty of opportunities to ask "why?" When the data supports no conclusion it's good science to re-evaluate the question and initial premises.

    Num.2:42 "To be or not to be, that is the question..."

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    I have pretty much left this thread after a difficult start. But I have been following it. Also I have been reviewing my library of Psych books and Google of course to answer my own questions.

    I am inclined to view this type of experience as possibly a little bit of a dissociative "problem".

    I think it may be an effort at quick closure to a dilemma. It is kind of a projected solution. And it may have elements of child like narcissim. We want to think of ourselves as special. The real world doesn't allow this but a belief that God cares about us individually gives us the spotlight.

    I am fond of African American gospel music. I listen to it on my mp3. It is very uplifiting. It doesn't make me believe in God. But it touches me that humans are so desperate for the Ideal Lover, friend, father, mother that they will idealize these needs in a perftect person.

    Does anyone know much about how Tolkien was instrumental in the conversion of C.S. Lewis?

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    LittleToe and HS LT, you said in your original post that you felt the love of Jesus and made a few comments about your belief that he is your redeemer. Love is a feeling and what you describe is your personal experience. Much of what we label as spiritual is about feelings and personal experiences. HS, you might tend to dismiss LT's spiritual (or all religious) feelings as intangible, possibly misleading since the spiritual experience cannot be weighed, measured or proven scientifically, it cannot lead to factual answers. For logical people firmly grounded in our physical world this might seem the only rational course. Yet, the most successful science of the 20th century, quantum mechanics, discovered that at the subatomic level the scientific method has broken down and we can no longer observe without becoming part of the experiment, even affecting it's outcome. Since everything is connected at that level we cannot test anything or learn anything without becoming part of the experiment and the experience. The result is that most great scientist in this field slowly become philosophers or even mystics. Theoretical physicist Amit Goswami comments on the natural consequence of the connectedness that quantum mechanics has demonstrated: " How can you not love when there is a one consciousness and you know that you and the other are not really separated?" In my personal journey I have gone from duped believer to rational agnostic. Since studying QM and the new science of consciousness I have come full circle to believing, not in a mythical god but, that there is far more to life than this human experience. And surprisingly it boils down to being "all about love, light, and life" as LT said in his first post. I'm more open now to feelings and experience in an area where tangible prove and factual answers cannot be expected.

    Steve
  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Proplog:

    I have pretty much left this thread after a difficult start.

    Glad you're back. Past is history, let's enjoy the present and look forward to the future...

    I am inclined to view this type of experience as possibly a little bit of a dissociative "problem".

    That's a common excuse for not examining the individuals and simply avoiding the suggestion that something genuine is happening. I manage Mental Health services for my local area, and have also started a Psychology Degree. I'm familiar with MPD and to blanket generalise isn't helpful, especially when there are people genuinely suffering from such a disorder. We do them no justice to label with a real "problem" (sic) everyone we see as not fitting into our model or framework.

    While I disagree with your conclusions I do accept that those conclusions allow you to mentally map such experiences to your satisfaction, so that all is right in your inner world. It's ok to own that, as we all do it, hence my coandor about self-delusion in my comments to Hillary.

    We want to think of ourselves as special.

    I though you said you read my initial post?

    Does anyone know much about how Tolkien was instrumental in the conversion of C.S. Lewis?

    They were close friends. Aside from having fantastic imaginations, they also functioned just fine in the physical world. While they integrated elements of their spirituality into their fiction, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove the reverse hypothesis.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Steve:
    Actually I've barely touched on my experiences at all. Pretty much all I've described are the accompanying feelings and emotions.

    That having been said, I love your post. I knew you were delving into quantum physics, but we've never had an opportunity to discuss your conclusions.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    I am inclined to view this type of experience as possibly a little bit of a dissociative "problem".

    That's a common excuse for not examining the individuals and simply avoiding the suggestion that something genuine is happening. I manage Mental Health services for my local area, and have also started a Psychology Degree. I'm familiar with MPD and to blanket generalise isn't helpful, especially when there are people genuinely suffering from such a disorder. We do them no justice to label with a real "problem" (sic) everyone we see as not fitting into our model or framework.

    Interesting that you quote someone speaking of "a little bit of a dissociative problem", but respond by talking about "MPD" :cough, shelby, cough:

    Seriously though, surely dissasociative experiences happen on a continuum; I have that right, yes? And I believe they've been shown to run in families as well. Which suggest further study will show that while true, full-blown-horror triggers massive dissasociation in some people, something more akin to "coping" or even just "existing" may trigger milder dissasociation in those most genetically disposed.

    I suppose some would argue that Satan, speaking thru a doberman, is massive dissasociation, but people just don't understand dog lovers.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    LT:

    Well I finally see what I'm doing wrong. We get in a helping mode. We want to direct another person in their journey. You had an experience. You have disclosed as much as you care to.

    It is natural to spin the metaphors and go to one's taxonomy and classify things. We then play the Procrustes game of fitting people to our beds.

    When you figure it out let me know exactly what you figured out.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Six:
    You're right. There can be a hereditary predisposition to mental illness, as with many physical complaints. Fortunately there are no mental health issues on either side of the family for as far back as you care to go. There's not even dementia or altzeimers. The genetic pool allows for youthful looks, ending life by old-age, heart attack, and one case of cancer.

    I suppose some would argue that Satan, speaking thru a doberman, is massive dissasociation, but people just don't understand dog lovers.

    Yeah, b*stards all of 'em! They told me breeding Rottweillers and Poodles couldn't be done, but I proved 'em wrong!

    Proplog:

    When you figure it out let me know exactly what you figured out.

    We're all on a wonderful shared journey that starts, exists, and ends in...

    42.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    {{{{{{{{{{{{LittleToe}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

    While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become children of light." Jesus...Joh 12:36

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